Obama's economic plan - Soak The Rich

[gdnp]

No offense but you're ****ing nuts.

Why so? Describe some of the activities of rich people and I will tell you if they apply.

I live on less than a third of an acre lot.
3 kids with 3 1/2 bedroom house. My younger daughter's room is 8 x 12
Formica counters
Mix of cheap tile, peeling linoleum, and hardwood floors
20 + year old kitchen appliances (fridge only 12 years)
Aluminum siding
2 cars for 3 drivers: a 2000 ford focus and a 2003 Toyota sienna
My wife's jewelry collection is worth maybe $3000. Including her engagement ring, which I inherited from my grandmother.
Clothes from J.C. Penny, Gentleman's Wearhouse, KMart, and outlets. No-iron shirts.

Luxuries:
My wife and I both work. We have a cleaning lady 1 day/wk
We have a pool.
Central air conditioning
We eat a lot of prepackaged frozen food or take-out. Neither of us likes to cook much.
1 buy my lunch each day. 5-7 dollars.
We have 5 computers, most expensive my 5 year old laptop that cost $1500
I collect Japanese woodblock prints. Average about $500/month.
Cable TV and high speed internet.
5 cell phones with family plan.
I drive my Focus to work rather than taking a 2 hour bus/subway ride.
5 or so NYC concerts, operas, or shows a year, usually with discount tickets, but occasionally with rear orchestra or balcony seats up to $100 each.
I have a fancy watch. Inherited it from my father.

When I think of a rich person, I think of a person who has a live-in maid or cook. Who eats out regularly. Who has a McMansion with extra bedrooms and several acres of land. Vacation homes. State-of the art appliances and granite kitchen counters. New high end cars and SUVs, with more cars than drivers. First class air travel. $10,000 artworks. Front orchestra show tickets. Multicarat diamonds. Brooks Brothers clothing. Country club memberships. Yachts.

Maybe this is what you think of as ultra-rich.

As I said, I am not complaining. I can pay off my credit card each month. I can eat mac and cheese because I want to, not because I have to.

But you think I'm ****ing nuts because I don't feel rich?

Oh, and I forgot. To support this extravagant lifestyle, I have a moonlighting job to make extra cash. After my regular 50-60 hours per week of work.

I think of rich people as living off money they inherited. I earn mine.

 

[Texas]

Typically, though, people never think of themselves as rich, as long as they can see someone more rich. Though I make well less than $100k a year, I think of myself as quite rich, and it doesn't bother me in the least that I get taxed at a higher percentage than those who earn $30k or less. I don't want to be like so many rich people who cannot seem to appreciate how much they have for worrying about how much they are taxed.

.

Do you itemize deductions or do you just pay the tax on your gross income? If the latter then you are walking the walk, if the former you are just patting yourself on the back.

 

[David Wong]

If you're in the top 2% richest people in the country, you're rich by any sane definition. If you claim the top 2% aren't rich, then you're using the word differently than anyone else who speaks the language is using it. It's a 700-lb man calling himself "thin." We can't stop him from using the word that way, but he's got a grossly skewed picture of reality if he does.

I don't care if you choose to live in a grass hut and work 90 hours a week, you're still making more than 98% of your peers.

And you should pay more into the system. You can afford it. No matter how you twist it or claim poverty in whatever bizarre, gated, disconnected mindset you have, you can't escape the sheer fact that 98% of the people around you are still poorer.

You are rich. It's not up for debate. If you're seven feet tall, you're tall. You can talk about how there are still shelves you can't reach, it doesn't matter. Once you're in the upper 2% in a category, you can't escape the adjective that applies.

 

[corplinx]

What world are you living in?

The one where a 3 bedroom home in silicon valley laffs at that salary

 

[David Wong]

You know, this thread is extremely demonstrative of the whole economic debate. The fact is that most rich people don't know they're rich, and once they get rich, can't conceive of what it's like to scrape by.

You start to take so much for granted, if your car breaks down you don't have to buy fewer groceries, if you get a toothache you don't have to put off going to the dentist for months while you save up. You just take the car to the shop, make an appointment with the dentist, and you don't perceive that those little hassles in your life would be luxuries to others.

I think it's the whole social aspect of upper income types socializing with other upper income types, and seeing the whole world through that perspective. They're truly disconnected.

That some of these people can climb 98% way up the ladder and perceive themselves at the bottom or middle... it's almost a neurosis. It's scary to hear people talk like that but it offers tremendous insight to why these people get so bitter about taxes and such, they truly don't understand that as much as they THINK they can't afford it, others TRULY can't afford it.

 

[jj]

Are you joking? That income puts you among the top 2% richest people in the USA, and in the top .0001% on Earth.

Dude, you don't know what rich is. There are lots of people in this country in that tax bracket.

Millionaires are a dime a dozen any more.

You're not RICH until you hit a few billion any more.

 

[gdnp]

What world are you living in? $250,000 per year is very rich. It's probably in the top one or two percent of income brackets in the US. Worldwide, it's well into the less-than-one percent.

[ranting] Congratulations. You have successfully demonstrated that I am in the top 2% of income in the US. By your definition, that makes me rich.

However, if you read the above post, I think you will see why I don't feel rich. Top 2% income does not imply top 2% wealth.

The world I am living in is called the New York Metropolitan area.

It is a place where a 3 1/2 bedroom house in a town with an excellent public school system costs $800,000. Yeah, that's right. Us rich guys send our kids to public schools. Of course, if you want a commute of less than 45 minutes each way, then you're looking at over a million.

Property taxes on said house are $15,000/ yr. Sorry, that was last year. This year will be closer to 16K

The toll for driving to work across the George Washington Bridge was just raised to $8. Plus $12 per day for discount parking.

Of course, I could move my family to Manhattan to avoid the commute. Too bad the average 2 bedroom apartment in Manhattan costs $1 million. My 3 kids won't mind sharing a room. Besides, they have good public schools there. If your kids are in the top 1%. Otherwise, there are some decent private schools. If you can get in, the tuition starts at around 25K. For kindergarten. [/done ranting]

That being said, I am not complaining about having to pay too much in taxes. I believe that the Bush tax cuts should be allowed to expire. I only have 2 beefs with the tax system: one, that the income I earn is taxed at a higher rate than the income that people make on inherited wealth, and two, that I have to hire an accountant and pay him $1000 a year to file my taxes because the $%^$@# system is so complex that I can't do it myself.

As far as I am concerned the cap on the payroll tax should be lifted altogether. It is a regressive tax. I would be even more thrilled it were extended to all income, including capital gains, interest, and dividends.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Why so? Describe some of the activities of rich people and I will tell you if they apply.

I live on less than a third of an acre lot.
3 kids with 3 1/2 bedroom house. My younger daughter's room is 8 x 12
Formica counters
Mix of cheap tile, peeling linoleum, and hardwood floors
20 + year old kitchen appliances (fridge only 12 years)
Aluminum siding
2 cars for 3 drivers: a 2000 ford focus and a 2003 Toyota sienna
My wife's jewelry collection is worth maybe $3000. Including her engagement ring, which I inherited from my grandmother.
Clothes from J.C. Penny, Gentleman's Wearhouse, KMart, and outlets. No-iron shirts.

Luxuries:
My wife and I both work. We have a cleaning lady 1 day/wk
We have a pool.
Central air conditioning
We eat a lot of prepackaged frozen food or take-out. Neither of us likes to cook much.
1 buy my lunch each day. 5-7 dollars.
We have 5 computers, most expensive my 5 year old laptop that cost $1500
I collect Japanese woodblock prints. Average about $500/month.
Cable TV and high speed internet.
5 cell phones with family plan.
I drive my Focus to work rather than taking a 2 hour bus/subway ride.
5 or so NYC concerts, operas, or shows a year, usually with discount tickets, but occasionally with rear orchestra or balcony seats up to $100 each.
I have a fancy watch. Inherited it from my father.

When I think of a rich person, I think of a person who has a live-in maid or cook. Who eats out regularly. Who has a McMansion with extra bedrooms and several acres of land. Vacation homes. State-of the art appliances and granite kitchen counters. New high end cars and SUVs, with more cars than drivers. First class air travel. $10,000 artworks. Front orchestra show tickets. Multicarat diamonds. Brooks Brothers clothing. Country club memberships. Yachts.

Maybe this is what you think of as ultra-rich.

As I said, I am not complaining. I can pay off my credit card each month. I can eat mac and cheese because I want to, not because I have to.

But you think I'm ****ing nuts because I don't feel rich?

Oh, and I forgot. To support this extravagant lifestyle, I have a moonlighting job to make extra cash. After my regular 50-60 hours per week of work.

I think of rich people as living off money they inherited. I earn mine.

Um being rich isn't about lifestyle, look at Buffet.

Being rich is making a ****load more money in two months than most people make in a year.

See the graph I posted, which shows 98% of households and you don't even show.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

[ranting] Congratulations. You have successfully demonstrated that I am in the top 2% of income in the US. By your definition, that makes me rich.

However, if you read the above post, I think you will see why I don't feel rich. Top 2% income does not imply top 2% wealth.

The world I am living in is called the New York Metropolitan area.

It is a place where a 3 1/2 bedroom house in a town with an excellent public school system costs $800,000. Yeah, that's right. Us rich guys send our kids to public schools. Of course, if you want a commute of less than 45 minutes each way, then you're looking at over a million.

Property taxes on said house are $15,000/ yr. Sorry, that was last year. This year will be closer to 16K

The toll for driving to work across the George Washington Bridge was just raised to $8. Plus $12 per day for discount parking.

Of course, I could move my family to Manhattan to avoid the commute. Too bad the average 2 bedroom apartment in Manhattan costs $1 million. My 3 kids won't mind sharing a room. Besides, they have good public schools there. If your kids are in the top 1%. Otherwise, there are some decent private schools. If you can get in, the tuition starts at around 25K. For kindergarten. [/done ranting]

That being said, I am not complaining about having to pay too much in taxes. I believe that the Bush tax cuts should be allowed to expire. I only have 2 beefs with the tax system: one, that the income I earn is taxed at a higher rate than the income that people make on inherited wealth, and two, that I have to hire an accountant and pay him $1000 a year to file my taxes because the $%^$@# system is so complex that I can't do it myself.

As far as I am concerned the cap on the payroll tax should be lifted altogether. It is a regressive tax. I would be even more thrilled it were extended to all income, including capital gains, interest, and dividends.

Um, that's living pretty effing rich if you ask me. Kinda contradicts your last post.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

The one where a 3 bedroom home in silicon valley laffs at that salary

I really don't see how pointing to high house prices in certain areas shows anything about relative "richness".

 

[Texas]

I really don't see how pointing to high house prices in certain areas shows anything about relative "richness".

Well I live in a 4000 sq ft 5 bedroom house on an acre of land in suburban Houston. It is appraised at 200k. How much would the same house in California or NYC cost?

 

[David Wong]

[ranting] Congratulations. You have successfully demonstrated that I am in the top 2% of income in the US. By your definition, that makes me rich.

However, if you read the above post, I think you will see why I don't feel rich. Top 2% income does not imply top 2% wealth.

The world I am living in is called the New York Metropolitan area.

It is a place where a 3 1/2 bedroom house in a town with an excellent public school system costs $800,000. Yeah, that's right. Us rich guys send our kids to public schools. Of course, if you want a commute of less than 45 minutes each way, then you're looking at over a million.

Now imagine what life is like for the vast, vast majority of people there who make less than you.

 

[Texas]

Now imagine what life is like for the vast, vast majority of people there who make less than you.

Why?

 

[Fiona]

This is a curious thread. For clarification, may I ask if what you call a " payroll tax" is the same as what in the UK is called "national insurance". i.e. a tax which is imposed to pay for such things as the health service sickness and unemployment benefits; maternity pay and so on? And if it is the same do I understand from one of the earlier posts that employers pay a contribution equal to that of the employee?

 

[gdnp]

If you're in the top 2% richest people in the country, you're rich by any sane definition. If you claim the top 2% aren't rich, then you're using the word differently than anyone else who speaks the language is using it. It's a 700-lb man calling himself "thin." We can't stop him from using the word that way, but he's got a grossly skewed picture of reality if he does.

First, there is a distinction between income and wealth. If Bill Gates or Donald Trump earn no money this year, they will still be rich. Someone who earns 250K but has little in assets, lives in an expensive region of the country, has and high debts (ever hear of education loans?) may have little in the way of disposable income.

I don't care if you choose to live in a grass hut and work 90 hours a week, you're still making more than 98% of your peers.

98% of the people have less income than me. That does not mean that 98% are poorer. I am definitely not in the top 2% in wealth. Probably not the top 10%, although I will be some day. Once loans are paid off and I have caught up from the many years I spent getting the education necessary to earn the money I do.

And you should pay more into the system. You can afford it. No matter how you twist it or claim poverty in whatever bizarre, gated, disconnected mindset you have, you can't escape the sheer fact that 98% of the people around you are still poorer.

Guess what? I do pay more into the system. I have never argued that I should not pay more, or the amount more that I pay should be decreased. In fact, I would like the tax system to be more progressive. This is a straw man.

You are rich. It's not up for debate. If you're seven feet tall, you're tall. You can talk about how there are still shelves you can't reach, it doesn't matter. Once you're in the upper 2% in a category, you can't escape the adjective that applies.

Look back at my posts. I never claimed that I am not rich. I claimed that I do not feel rich. The examples from my lifestyle were to point out why that is so.

Dirtywick feels like he is upper middle class on an income of 50K. Just a guess, but I don't think he is living in the NY metropolitan area. I don't think he is supporting a wife and 3 teenagers, with one entering college next year, on that income and feeling "upper middle class"

Perhaps I should leave it at this: If you have a wife and 3 kids, and someone offers you a job in Manhattan for 250K, and you think you are going to buy a McMansion in the suburbs, send your kids to private schools, drive a BMW, and maybe buy a boat or a vacation condo in the Catskills...you are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Puppycow]

The one where a 3 bedroom home in silicon valley laffs at that salary

I guess most of the tech employees in Silicon Valley must live in cardbord boxes then.

Sez here the average tech salary in Silicon Valley was 85K in 2006. But people making triple the average can't afford a home?

 

[quixotecoyote]

Why?

Well gdnp just spun out a tale of woe about how hard it is to make ends meet on >$250 a year (my taxes are so high, the road tolls are going up, the full price of a good sized house in a swanky neighborhood is 3-4 years income, etc).

Given that my househould budget is <40,000 (and I survive reasonably comfortably, albiet with little left for savings) if you doubled my houshold income, then doubled it again, then added half of that total on top, I still wouldn't be making what he's making. From that perspective I don't think he's got a damn thing to complain about financially. He could afford more than 6 of my lives and he's complaining he can't get all the perks of his own.

sheesh


I don't begrudge him success in the least, but to hit the top 2% and then complain about money being tight .... no sympathy.

 

[gdnp]

Um, that's living pretty effing rich if you ask me. Kinda contradicts your last post.

So if I am living in a house that costs 800K with 16K/yr property taxes, and the same house elsewhere would cost 250K with 3k/yr property taxes, that means I'm living pretty effing rich?

Using that logic, I think we should ask the oil companies to raise gas prices to $10/gallon. Think how much richer we will be!

 

[SezMe]

Well I live in a 4000 sq ft 5 bedroom house on an acre of land in suburban Houston. It is appraised at 200k. How much would the same house in California or NYC cost?

This is an incredibly stupid post.

First of all, who cares? Your blah, blah, blah house is NOT in California or NYC. In fact, it is probably impossible for your blah, blah, blah house to even exist in NYC. And if you want to transplant your house to some hell hole in the southern California desert it will cost one helluva lot less than 200K.

Or maybe we should get an Solar System real estate agent to assess the value of your property on Io. Or Ganymede. Or (up) Uranus.

It would be just as relevant.

 

[quixotecoyote]

So if I am living in a house that costs 800K with 16K/yr property taxes, and the same house elsewhere would cost 250K with 3k/yr property taxes, that means I'm living pretty effing rich?

If you can afford that, then yes you're rich. Most people can't. It's really quite simple.