Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[DC]

It is a mosque when the subject is freedom of religion and those who would prefer a different location must then be "bigots" Then it isn't a mosque and those who would prefer a different location must then still be "bigots"?" This is some chameleon structure.

its a community center including prayer rooms, and nobody has brought up any unbigoted reason to oppose the location it is planned. No matter if you call it Mosque or Communitycenter

 

[Cicero]

No the US sucks, they do not even let swiss citizens vote for the US president.

Then what is your interest in U.S. politics? Nothing we do effects your cuckoo clocks, chocolates or yodeling.

But btw, i would probably not have voted for him. He is not leftist enough for me.

You are better off where you are since there is no objection to mosques and recreation centers......

Oh no!

Bern city says no to Islamic cultural centre

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Ar...o_to_Islamic_cultural_centre.html?cid=5927062

 

[Rufo]

I think there was a misunderstanding in posts #913, #914 and #915.

DC meant to ask in which post Cicero had "provide[d] the non-bigoted/ignorant/pandering reasons" as claimed in post #912, and Cicero meant to respond to where johnny karate stated the building was not a mosque.

The following posts became confusing because of this, so I just wanted to clear it up.

 

[johnny karate]

It is a mosque when the subject is freedom of religion and those who would prefer a different location must then be "bigots" Then it isn't a mosque and those who would prefer a different location must then still be "bigots"?" This is some chameleon structure.

It's not a mosque. It's a Muslim community center. That some people who oppose it are too stupid to make that distinction (most of these same people are also too stupid to realize it's not actually being built on Ground Zero) is irrelevant to the fact they still think it's a mosque and therefore oppose it due to religious bigotry.

No matter how you slice it, attempts are being made to deny Muslim-Americans a place to congregate and share in their faith, and that is most certainly an issue of religious freedom.

 

[DC]

Then what is your interest in U.S. politics? Nothing we do effects your cuckoo clocks, chocolates or yodeling.



You are better off where you are since there is no objection to mosques and recreation centers......

Oh no!

Bern city says no to Islamic cultural centre

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Ar...o_to_Islamic_cultural_centre.html?cid=5927062

Obama is telling our Politicans to spend more and more money, that is affecting our cuckoo clocks and chocolate , ok not the Yodeling so much. ETA: I like the Yodel sterotype, but wouldnt have expected it to be used from someone from a yodeling nation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEIBmGZxAhg

we are even more bigoted, we have banned minarets in general. Not one came up with a non bigoted reason for that discrimination neither.

 

[johnny karate]

If you're using them as examples of non-bigoted/ignorant/pandering people who oppose Park51's location, then surely you can provide the non-bigoted/ignorant/pandering reasons they used to back up their assertions.

I already have. Go back through this thread.

Now that Rufo has cleared up the confusion regarding these posts, let's take it from the top.

Cicero, the only non-bigoted/ignorant/pandering reason you've provided for opposing Park51 is because "it's not the wisest choice".

Why is it an unwise choice?

 

[Taarkin]

Cicero, why did you use Bonnie Erbe's obviously BIP(I'm getting tired of saying "bigotry/ignorance/pandering" every single time) statement as evidence that not all opposition to Park51 was based on BIP? I mean did you actually read the sentence "As a matter of national security, the United States has no practical way to distinguish between the majority of peace-loving Muslims and the minority who see it as their god-given mission to kill "the enemy."" and think to yourself "Yes! This is it. This is a sentence that lends credence to my assertion that not all PArk51 opponents are bigots"?

 

[GrouchoMarxist]

. . . (I'm getting tired of saying "bigotry/ignorance/pandering" every single time). . .

I can see how that could get tedious.

 

[leftysergeant]

It is so difficult for you to admit to an error? If it doesn't make any difference to your overall point why have you not conceded the point about Bonnie?

Why is she even relevant? I have never heard of her, get none of my news and views from her or even know what her religious leanings are. For all I know, she could be a Christian fundie.

Regardless what other views she may have, she said a bloody disgusting and stupid thing.

Now, here is a big difference between youand me. I will admit that some very solid liberals wander off into La-La- Land. You would, apparenbtly, rather stick needles in your eyes than say the same about even the most whacked-out conservative.

You would probably consider the Rushblob and Michael "Savage" Wiener rational, to judge by most of your posts. You seem to have their patois down to an art.

We are still waiting for an answer as to what arguments there are against the Park 51 project that are not grounded in knuckle-dragging bigotry, inspired and promoted to the hilt by the dregs of society.

 

[Cicero]

Why is she even relevant? I have never heard of her, get none of my news and views from her or even know what her religious leanings are. For all I know, she could be a Christian fundie.

You couldn't be further off the mark, again. You must have missed this Bonnie quote:


"What is the religious right doing by campaigning against abortion? First and foremost, its efforts seem aimed at trying to keep church pews filled by bringing more and more poor people into the world. Second, it will just end up boosting the teen unwed pregnancy rate every time it guilt trips an unwed, pregnant teen into bringing to term a child she does not want and cannot afford to raise. Third, it will effectively subjugate women and girls in the same way women and girls in developing nations are consigned to a life of child-bearing and little else."

Regardless what other views she may have, she said a bloody disgusting and stupid thing.

Could you be more specific? She has a habit of saying such things.

Now, here is a big difference between youand me. I will admit that some very solid liberals wander off into La-La- Land. You would, apparenbtly, rather stick needles in your eyes than say the same about even the most whacked-out conservative.

You would probably consider the Rushblob and Michael "Savage" Wiener rational, to judge by most of your posts. You seem to have their patois down to an art.

I have always referred to Rush as Limberger on JREF. You are batting a 1000.

We are still waiting for an answer as to what arguments there are against the Park 51 project that are not grounded in knuckle-dragging bigotry, inspired and promoted to the hilt by the dregs of society.

The callow crowd will no doubt will be hurling accusations of 'bigotry" at this Muslim's sagacious reason for why Rauf might want to consider moving the location of his mosque/pool hall/bowling alley/mosh pit

"I don't think the Muslim leadership has fully appreciated the impact of 9/11 on America. They assume Americans have forgotten 9/11 and even, in a profound way, forgiven 9/11, and that has not happened. The wounds remain largely open," Ahmed said. “And when wounds are raw, an episode like constructing a house of worship – even one protected by the Constitution, protected by law - becomes like salt in the wounds."

Akbar Ahmed, an Islamic studies professor at American University in Washington D.C.

 

[A'isha]

The callow crowd will no doubt will be hurling accusations of 'bigotry" at this Muslim's sagacious reason for why Rauf might want to consider moving the location of his mosque/pool hall/bowling alley/mosh pit

"I don't think the Muslim leadership has fully appreciated the impact of 9/11 on America. They assume Americans have forgotten 9/11 and even, in a profound way, forgiven 9/11, and that has not happened. The wounds remain largely open," Ahmed said. “And when wounds are raw, an episode like constructing a house of worship – even one protected by the Constitution, protected by law - becomes like salt in the wounds."

Akbar Ahmed, an Islamic studies professor at American University in Washington D.C.

Since his statement basically boils down to "Muslim leaders should remember that Americans associate all Muslims with 9/11", I'm not sure how you think that supports the position that opposition to Park51 isn't bigotry.

 

[pgwenthold]

We shouldn't dismiss Park51 opponents as bigots because all Muslims are indistinguishable from one another.

I may have mentioned it earlier in this thread, but I heard a caller on Michelangelo Senorigle's show one night say (with a straight face, even) something like, "Don't lump all of us who oppose the mosques in with those who are committing violent acts against muslims."

 

[DC]

You couldn't be further off the mark, again. You must have missed this Bonnie quote:


"What is the religious right doing by campaigning against abortion? First and foremost, its efforts seem aimed at trying to keep church pews filled by bringing more and more poor people into the world. Second, it will just end up boosting the teen unwed pregnancy rate every time it guilt trips an unwed, pregnant teen into bringing to term a child she does not want and cannot afford to raise. Third, it will effectively subjugate women and girls in the same way women and girls in developing nations are consigned to a life of child-bearing and little else."




Could you be more specific? She has a habit of saying such things.



I have always referred to Rush as Limberger on JREF. You are batting a 1000.



The callow crowd will no doubt will be hurling accusations of 'bigotry" at this Muslim's sagacious reason for why Rauf might want to consider moving the location of his mosque/pool hall/bowling alley/mosh pit

"I don't think the Muslim leadership has fully appreciated the impact of 9/11 on America. They assume Americans have forgotten 9/11 and even, in a profound way, forgiven 9/11, and that has not happened. The wounds remain largely open," Ahmed said. “And when wounds are raw, an episode like constructing a house of worship – even one protected by the Constitution, protected by law - becomes like salt in the wounds."

Akbar Ahmed, an Islamic studies professor at American University in Washington D.C.

how is your silence to the last posts to interpret?
you know that there is no unbigoted reason, but can't admit it?

 

[johnny karate]

The callow crowd will no doubt will be hurling accusations of 'bigotry" at this Muslim's sagacious reason for why Rauf might want to consider moving the location of his mosque/pool hall/bowling alley/mosh pit

"I don't think the Muslim leadership has fully appreciated the impact of 9/11 on America. They assume Americans have forgotten 9/11 and even, in a profound way, forgiven 9/11, and that has not happened. The wounds remain largely open," Ahmed said. “And when wounds are raw, an episode like constructing a house of worship – even one protected by the Constitution, protected by law - becomes like salt in the wounds."

Akbar Ahmed, an Islamic studies professor at American University in Washington D.C.

Yeah, that would be "pandering to bigotry", an option already provided. You were tasked with finding an option other than bigotry/pandering/ignorance. And not surprisingly, you failed again.

That's your cue to dodge the question with insults and mock indignation.

 

[Cicero]

we are even more bigoted, we have banned minarets in general. Not one came up with a non bigoted reason for that discrimination neither.

"Announcing their decision, Bern city officials said the land, part of the development project called "Wankdorf City", had been set aside for a regional medical centre."

Damn those Swiss "bigots" for deciding to go ahead with their original plan to build a hospital on that land. Too bad you weren't on JREF back in 2007. You could have started a thread about the plight of Farhad Afshar and how a medical center was deemed more crucial to Bern's citizens than the construction of a museum on Islam, a mosque, a convention centre, offices and a four-star hotel.

 

[DC]

"Announcing their decision, Bern city officials said the land, part of the development project called "Wankdorf City", had been set aside for a regional medical centre."

Damn those Swiss "bigots" for deciding to go ahead with their original plan to build a hospital on that land. Too bad you weren't on JREF back in 2007. You could have started a thread about the plight of Farhad Afshar and how a medical center was deemed more crucial to Bern's citizens than the construction of a museum on Islam, a mosque, a convention centre, offices and a four-star hotel.

good one, another project already planned would be a unbigoted reason, but that aint the case in New York, is it? Nor is it the case for banning all minarets.

 

[Cicero]

Yeah, that would be "pandering to bigotry", an option already provided. You were tasked with finding an option other than bigotry/pandering/ignorance. And not surprisingly, you failed again.

That's your cue to dodge the question with insults and mock indignation.

It's my cue to remind you that your characterization of Akbar Ahmed's non-bigoted explanation as "pandering to bigotry" is just your usual biased and uninformed opinion. What is amusing is that you, and the other "bigot" labelers in this thread, have no other recourse or discourse but to refer to all who disagree with you as "bigots." How is this tactic working so far? Does this sort of intimidation of those who wish the mosque were moved to another site mean that Rauf won't reconsider his plans?

 

[Cicero]

Since his statement basically boils down to "Muslim leaders should remember that Americans associate all Muslims with 9/11", I'm not sure how you think that supports the position that opposition to Park51 isn't bigotry.

You have your burner set too high. You reduced the contents to hot air. Actually, Akbar Ahmed said Muslim leaders should be more sympathetic to the sensitivities of New Yorkers (whether they be oversensitive or not) to the fallout from 911. Being oversensitive nine years later to how the terrorists on 911 acted on behalf of Islamic Fundamentalism may be difficult for Rauf to comprehend, but it surely isn't a reaction stepped in 'bigotry." Otherwise, New Yorkers would be channeling this supposed unrestrained 'bigotry" against the existing 11 or more mosques currently in Manhattan.

 

[johnny karate]

It's my cue to remind you that your characterization of Akbar Ahmed's non-bigoted explanation as "pandering to bigotry" is just your usual biased and uninformed opinion.

Then please, learned sir, inform me!

When Ahmed speaks of the raw wounds of 9/11, what does any of that have to do with the Muslim-Americans who had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks wishing to build a community center in lower Manhattan?

How is it not bigotry to associate these Muslims with the Muslims who attacked us on 9/11 by the mere fact that their all Muslims?

What is amusing is that you, and the other "bigot" labelers in this thread, have no other recourse or discourse but to refer to all who disagree with you as "bigots."

No, what is truly amusing is watching you again and again fail to make an argument.

How is this tactic working so far?

How's the googling for other people's words because you're afraid to use your own going for you?

Does this sort of intimidation of those who wish the mosque were moved to another site mean that Rauf won't reconsider his plans?

Wait... who's being intimidated? I mean, besides the American citizens wishing to exercise their freedom of religion.

What a strange accusation for you to make...

And par for course in your zealous quest to avoid at all costs actually making an argument.

 

[A'isha]

You have your burner set too high. You reduced the contents to hot air. Actually, Akbar Ahmed said Muslim leaders should be more sympathetic to the sensitivities of New Yorkers (whether they be oversensitive or not) to the fallout from 911. Being oversensitive nine years later to how the terrorists on 911 acted on behalf of Islamic Fundamentalism may be difficult for Rauf to comprehend, but it surely isn't a reaction stepped in 'bigotry."

The Park51 people didn't carry out the 9/11 attacks. They didn't plan them. They didn't even approve of them (and, in fact, roundly condemned them). They are, in fact, members of a religious sect that are themselves routinely subject to terrorist attacks carried out by the same people responsible for 9/11.

So please tell me how the building of Park51 is in any way related to "the sensitivities of New Yorkers to the fallout from 911" that doesn't involve associating all Muslims everywhere with the terrorist attacks.

Otherwise, New Yorkers would be channeling this supposed unrestrained 'bigotry" against the existing 11 or more mosques currently in Manhattan.

Tell me, what sensitive site associated with the 9/11 terrorist attacks is in Staten Island that's causing all these people to protest against the construction of a mosque there?