Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[headscratcher4]

"Sure, Hawaii can call anything they publish a "certified copy" but that doesn't really make it one. "

You realize that is idiotic? That is EXACTLY what states can and do do. That is what the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution is all about. A state chooses which documents it recognizes for the purpose of establishing facts like place of birth. In this case Hawaii, like I suspect every state of the Union, has designated the form that Obama released in 2008 as its official birth certificate and "certifies" (i.e. stands behind) the document as prima facie evidence for a) the birhplace of the person indicated on the form and b) that it is verified and attested to and supported by the full powers of the State of Hawaii.

You really have the whole thing backward. It is you who is attempting to define what is "certified" but your version of what is "certified" doesn't make it so.

 

[Juniversal]

Only if you define "worked hard to hide much of his past" as "not jumping through every hoop demanded by birthers."

Otherwise, you have someone who publicly released his birth certificate and an autobiography.

Basically, the birthers are like a kid who whines at Walmart for some candy, then whines louder and louder, and finally throws a tantrum demanding candy. Obama gave in to them, which isn't the best move IMO; all they've learned is that they get what they want when they kick and scream, no matter how ridiculous it is. I can understand being that fed up, but I wish he wouldn't have.

I don't believe he did it to satisfy birthers. I think he did it to put the politicians that were appealing to the birthers behind the 8 ball so to speak.

I think my reply from the other birther thread is appropriate here;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7131351&postcount=268

 

[BeAChooser]

I'm talking about the two copies that Fuddy herself personally witnessed being made.

Then pardon me.

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

Here is a question for Birthers....
What is your endgame? Clearly you have decided from the beginning Obama is not American, and will ignore the validity of any documentation he releases. Birthers dismissed the birth certicate that was recently released as a fake even before they saw it
All that proves are the piss poor investigation skills of conspiracy crackpots.

Conspiracists draw a conclusion without any evidence to back up their claims, ignore evidence that contradicts their theories, and they use gossip, lies and rumor that favors their beliefs and pass such off as as 'facts' and 'proof'. (Just like the Truthers, or Trump's latest lie about Obama being a poor student- even though he graduated from Harvard with honors)

What is ultimate objective of the Birthers? To have Obama impeached? Assassinated? Or to have him deported?

The whole assinine Birther movement is nothing more than mud slinging- Right wingers despise Obama and will discredit him any way they can, and white bigot's hatred of educated black people in positions of power is without doubt a driving force of the anti-Obama fringe in the rabid right wing.

Slamming Obama for being fiscally reckless- yet being perpetual apologists for the spending sprees of Reagan and the Bushes does little for the Republican Party's ever shrinking credibility.

The people who attack Obama for using a teleprompter during speeches (EVERYONE on tv uses a teleprompter during a speech) simply refuse to believe a black man can be articulate, and have expressed such opinions. Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin (!!!), Glenn beck have demonstrated time and time again they feel Obama is in fact a dimwitted person who couldn't string two sentenses together without a teleprompter. I suspect such is projection on their part, particularly in the case of the mildly retarded Sarah Paliin.

 

[BeAChooser]

You certainly did.

Actually you are partially right. Re-reading what he wrote "That anybody could get their 'long form' from the state of Hawaii", I see the word "their" ... and I said previously that anybody, by law, SHOULD be able to get "their" long form from the state of Hawaii. And I still stand by that statement based on my reading of the law which I quoted extensively, rather than depending on "regulations", concocted by bureaucrats whose statements have changed over the years (or even the last few weeks) depending on the political circumstances. Regulations which clearly contradict what the law actually states . The law is rock solid in black and white. The other (regulations) blows with the wind ... and is not the law. The may be backed by the law if they violate the law. But these did and do. You shouldn't be able to make exceptions to the law on a whim as clearly occurred here. But I guess that's now ok with democrats because that they have their version of a *royal* in the White House. At least he acts like a king.

 

[BeAChooser]

Otherwise, you have someone who publicly released his birth certificate and an autobiography.

Sure ... an autobiography that failed to mention that his "teenage mentor", Frank, was actually Frank Marshall Davis, a hardcore KGB backed communist.

 

[BeAChooser]

A Laughing Boy, it would be a courtesy if you'd quote the portion of what I write that you are responding to. Otherwise, I'm liable to simply ignore your ravings.

 

[BeAChooser]

Ducks and Walking comes to mind.

So you were trying to personalize what you wrote to include me specifically?

 

[Ausmerican]

LOL! JFK would be considered a far right republican given the policies of modern democrats. And what's odd about Obama is that he has willingly worked with and surrounded himself with very extreme people from the far far left his entire life. He entered politics under the wing of some of the most radical people in the country. Some of them, avowed communists. His efforts to hide his past are in large part an effort to hide those relationships (hence the relevance of this post to this thread) because he knows full well they would be problematic to the majority of Americans. Because common sense tells all of us that after a while, some of that far left ideology was bound to have rubbed off and it now shows up in his "redistribution", "social justice", and "America's not exceptional" rhetoric.




And we certainly know where you are coming from.

As has been pointed out to you many times who he was supposedly surrounded by in the past has nothing to do with whether he is himself acting like a far left President.

His idea of "redistribution" was to go back to the the tax rates as they were under Clinton. You know the ones that would tax the rich less than under Reagan? And hey wasn't progressive taxation brought in by that Commie Teddy Roosevelt?

"Social justice" which Beckheads and other retards like to pretend is some kind of code for socialism was used in the 1930s and 40s in the United States when it was used in the publications of that noted left wing commie Father Coughlin well before John Rawls used it.

And what he said about American exceptionalism was:
"I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism. I'm enormously proud of my country and its role and history in the world. If you think about the site of this summit and what it means, I don't think America should be embarrassed to see evidence of the sacrifices of our troops, the enormous amount of resources that were put into Europe postwar, and our leadership in crafting an Alliance that ultimately led to the unification of Europe. We should take great pride in that."

As a citizen of another country I can tell you that yes, most people think their country is exceptional. The difference is Obama sees Americas exceptionalism as something to be constantly strived toward and mainteined, not the egotistical, jingoistic, "We're number 1!!" assumption that America is perfect and always in the right.
The saying isn't "My country right or wrong."
It is “My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”

 

[BeAChooser]

No, because following an unlawful order given by a lawful superior is still prosecutable (this is what happened at Nuremberg, after all).

But Sabrina just said that Obama doesn't give any orders to the troops at the level of Lakin. Why should we now believe that Hitler did?

He pled guilty to that

He pled guilty after he wasn't allowed to present his case. Something called a Kangaroo Court comes to mind.

Quote:
Sure, Hawaii can call anything they publish a "certified copy" but that doesn't really make it one.

Yes it does, actually.

No, it doesn't. Can you even find a definition of "certified copy" in Hawaiian law? Unless you can, what they did is so far from the documented definitions of "certified copy" that they could have handed out almost anything they want and still called it a "certified copy" ... and been just as correct.

 

[NotJesus]

Sure ... an autobiography that failed to mention that his "teenage mentor", Frank, was actually Frank Marshall Davis, a hardcore KGB backed communist.

Why should Obama's book have referenced your fever dreams about the KGB?

 

[BeAChooser]

These people make me...

Well don't hurt yourself hiding in you

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

I'm curious- how many Birthers here are also 9/11 Truthers?

 

[BeAChooser]

"Sure, Hawaii can call anything they publish a "certified copy" but that doesn't really make it one. "

You realize that is idiotic?

Well go ahead. Post for us the legal definition that Hawaii uses for "certified copy". Can you find it actually written down? And can you find any definition in the general literature which agrees with it? If you can't find it written down, then couldn't they provide a COLB with ANY contents they wished and you'd have to agree it is "certified"? In which case, hasn't the phrase "certified copy" lost all meaning? Hmmmm? Why don't you answer this question too, ANTPogo?

 

[Mr.D]

BaC: Have you ever been wrong about anything non-trivial?

 

[BeAChooser]

His idea of "redistribution" was to go back to the the tax rates as they were under Clinton.

No, his past words and deeds show his idea of "redistribution" is quite a bit more extensive than that.

"Social justice" which Beckheads and other retards like to pretend is some kind of code for socialism

Are you calling me a "retard"?

And what he said about American exceptionalism was:

"I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism.

Well let's see, anything significant that Greeks accomplished happened centuries ago and now Greek economy is a basket case worse than ours. Same for the British. The Royals seem to be the pinnacle of British exceptionalism. So I don't really think that Obama's statement means much of anything and can hardly be viewed as proof that he does believe in American exceptionalism. He thinks we are no more exceptional than the Greeks. And that says it all.

I'm enormously proud of my country and its role and history in the world.

And yet in almost every other venue, Barack demeans and apologizes for America's history. His wife went so far as to state she had never been proud of America until Obama was nominated for President. You think that wasn't discussed in the Obama home before then? Reverend Wright, who Obama identified as an influential person in his life was not at all proud of America's history. And Obama went to his church regularly for 20 years. So pardon me if I doubt the sincerity of this one little paragraph that Obama uttered for purely political reasons.

 

[Ausmerican]

Are you calling me a "retard"?

That is not what I said. Why? Do you like to pretend that the phrase "social justice" is some kind of code for socialism?

Nearly Forgot:

 

[A'isha]

But Sabrina just said that Obama doesn't give any orders to the troops at the level of Lakin. Why should we now believe that Hitler did?

Because that's not what the defendants at Nuremberg said happened. They were given those unlawful orders by their lawful superiors, not Hitler himself, nor were they accused of receiving orders from Hitler himself.

He pled guilty after he wasn't allowed to present his case. Something called a Kangaroo Court comes to mind.

He didn't have a case. As the officers empaneled on the court martial noted, Obama's birth was irrelevant to the lawful order from a lawful superior that Lakin received and disobeyed.

No, it doesn't. Can you even find a definition of "certified copy" in Hawaiian law? Unless you can, what they did is so far from the documented definitions of "certified copy" that they could have handed out almost anything they want and still called it a "certified copy" ... and been just as correct.

Yes, because there is no standard. A "certified copy" means that the document in question has been declared by a legitimate authority to be an accurate representation in some way of the original. And for birth certificates, even abstracts count (for instance, to get a US passport does not require an exact photocopy, merely a sealed and stamped document listing the required information).

Each state determines what's on the copies it issues, though the CDC has been working to get certificates standardized across all states.

As for Hawaii's certificate, this Hawaiian law says that "certified copies" can be a computer printout. On May 16, 2001, the Department of Health stated it would issue only those certified computer printouts.

 

[A'isha]

Well go ahead. Post for us the legal definition that Hawaii uses for "certified copy". Can you find it actually written down? And can you find any definition in the general literature which agrees with it? If you can't find it written down, then couldn't they provide a COLB with ANY contents they wished and you'd have to agree it is "certified"? In which case, hasn't the phrase "certified copy" lost all meaning? Hmmmm? Why don't you answer this question too, ANTPogo?

See above.

In terms of what specifically a certified copy should contain and how it should be certified are governed by Department of Health Administrative Rules.

The most current rules regarding certified copies in Hawaii are not online (it says "New Rules in Process" with a directive to contact Alvin Onaka, the registrar), but a collection of older rules for certified copies (including revisions over the years) can be found at the link above (including guidelines for issuing an "abbreviated copy" made by computer printout).

 

[A'isha]

Oh, and for those people potentially still concerned about the PDF version of Obama's long form:

The Hawaii Department of Health web page about Obama's vital statistics records has now been updated with a link directly to the whitehouse.gov page hosting that PDF.

Seems they think it's legit.