Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[The Platypus]

Watching the birthers scramble and grasp at straws is hilarious!

 

[randman]

The difference is this:
It is not a certified certificate of live birth. That by legal definition is what Obama submitted years ago.

This latest document is a certified copy of a document in the state's possession. Just like any other document, they certified that is it a legitimate copy of the document in the state's possession, that and only that. They do not certified that it can be used for proof of birth. For that you need the document that Obama submitted years ago.

So do you now believe Obama is a natural-born US citizen and eligible to be President of the USA?

So just as I and others stated, he could have released this but waited.

On whether someone born of a father from a different nation meets the Constitutional requirements, I have previously stated I don't think they do, but that would have to be settled by the courts and should have been before he became president.

But the weight of evidence now supports he was born in Hawaii.

 

[randman]

The very fact that the Hawaiian Sec. of State made an "exception" proves that he could not simply request the document be released. THE STATE MADE AN EXCEPTION. Exception: generally defined as not conforming to the rule. Obama asked the state to do something it never does. So, the request might be "simple" but the actual deed is far more complex and complicated than that...it is what makes it an exception.

No exception. State law says anyone can request it. Furthermore, when I pointed out the absurdity of defending Obama by saying as president he could not obtain it, many of you laughed that off.

Well, you guys were wrong on this.

 

[The Platypus]

The birthers yapped and yapped for the long form and now they have gotten it. Their boo-hoos about him waiting so long to release it are totally pathetic. It's not on Obama to pander to every wacko and bigot out there. The birther idiots didn't have to play their ridiculous games and fabricate all kinds of lies, wasting all this time making a scene in the first place. What about that? Where were these birthers for every other president?? What about that?

The question isn't why did he wait so long, the question is why do these idiot birthers play these idiotic games in the first place...What about that?

Enjoy your big bowl of crow birthers... you lost and lost badly...

 

[Spindrift]

So just as I and others stated, he could have released this but waited.

On whether someone born of a father from a different nation meets the Constitutional requirements, I have previously stated I don't think they do, but that would have to be settled by the courts and should have been before he became president.

But the weight of evidence now supports he was born in Hawaii.

No he couldn't. They made a special exception for him, because the birthers wouldn't give up. And guess what? It was a waste of time. There was no new information as it was known there wouldn't be, hence the reluctance to make a special exception.

The weight of the evidence has ALWAYS supported the fact he was born in Hawaii, especially because he was born in Hawaii.

 

[kookbreaker]

She definitely said it was "impossible" and repeated that silliness a number of times.

Prove it.

Of course, it wasn't. All he had to do was request it.

And be the President of the United States.

And no, I won this game if we were calling it that.

In other words all you are interested in is pwnage. It makes you pathetic.

He could have, should have, and finally did respond to the reasonable request to produce his long-form birth certificate.

Wrong. He was taunted by kooks and nutcases and decided to release it so that Hawaii didn't have to deal with the cranks any more. The form he released previously was more than legally adequate except to the psychopartisan set.

 

[sts60]

But the weight of evidence now supports he was born in Hawaii.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. (Please bear in mind that I made no claim as to whether producing this particular document was "legal" or "possible".)

1. Before its release, you had doubts that he was born in Hawaii.
2. Now you do believe it, or at least you find it probable.

My question, assuming I have captured your position correctly, is: why did you not believe one document produced by the State of Hawaii, and then believe another which confirms the first document?

This is not a trick question.

 

[kookbreaker]

No exception. State law says anyone can request it. Furthermore, when I pointed out the absurdity of defending Obama by saying as president he could not obtain it, many of you laughed that off.

So which one is it? Anyone can request it or you need to be the President?

We didn't say the President couldn't get it, but that it might be a possible violation of his power to do so. As it is he handled it pretty well, but he's still getting what no regular citizen could get.

 

[headscratcher4]

This is not a trick question.

Oh, but don't be surprised by the trick answer.

 

[timhau]

So just as I and others stated, he could have released this but waited.

On whether someone born of a father from a different nation meets the Constitutional requirements, I have previously stated I don't think they do, but that would have to be settled by the courts and should have been before he became president.

But the weight of evidence now supports he was born in Hawaii.

In other words, you were wrong about the birth question, but you'd still like a court declaration that half-breeds cannot be presidents.

 

[kookbreaker]

"So what next, General Phyrrus?"

 

[timhau]

"So what next, General Phyrrus?"

"I hear he was a bad student at university-like thing that my son-in-law bought his way in, despite having neither the GPA nor the SAT scores. Investigate!"

 

[fezzic]

Well Obama went to the trouble of getting a copy of his long form certificate, but we know it won't put an end to this "controversy".

Obviously, the DOH does not want to be forced to provide the long form as a matter of routine (if something, like the long form, is provided on request for one then the service has to be available to all). It is more efficient to provide a computer printed document and the law says that it is prima facie evidence which should be sufficient for most purposes.

Obama could point to a particular need, obvious to many, that the computer generated form was not adequate for the purpose so an exception could be made (after all I think it is in the official's discretion to make an accommodation when the circumstances justify it) and a copy of the long form provided. I am certain that if *I* went to the DOH and requested my long form that I would be rebuffed and provided with the computer generated form unless I could show some compelling reason or requirement as to why the long form was needed (say the government required it for some official purpose).

 

[A'isha]

Hmm....but if no one can as you insist, how do you explain the certified copy just released?

Obama asked the Hawaii Department of Health to make an exception, which they did (because, as they noted explicitly in their reply, "in recognition" of the fact that Obama was President). You do know what an exception is, don't you? Had they said "no", then Obama would not have been able to get what he got.

And the fact that this is an exception confirms what I and others have said all along: that when people born in Hawaii ask for a certified copy of their birth certificate, they get what Obama received and released back in '07/'08.

That's why Miki Booth was unable to obtain her son's long form. That's why LTC Lakin was unable to obtain her daughter's long form. That's why no member of the Hawaii Tea Party has been able to obtain a long form.

 

[Bob001]

... On whether someone born of a father from a different nation meets the Constitutional requirements, I have previously stated I don't think they do...

Possibly helpful:

"Andrew Jackson's parents emigrated to the U.S. from Ireland. Jackson is the only president having two immigrant parents. Woodrow Wilson and Thomas Jefferson's mothers were both born in England. James Buchanan and Chester Arthur's fathers were born in Ireland. Herbert Hoover’s mother was born in Ontario, Canada, and Barack Obama's father was born in Kenya."

http://immigration.about.com/b/2009/02/16/presidential-sons-of-immigrants.htm

 

[headscratcher4]

The real question isn't whether AntPogo or I or others arguing over the state law should apologize...it is why the birthers here aren't mad at the people and sources they've been citing for two years now who claimed that there was something wrong or hinky about Obama's birth. Wake up folks, you've been lied to, and repeatedly so, by sources you put more faith in than the Authority of the State of Hawaii and its civil servants. You were told that the underlying document would reveal all kinds of stuff...like he was a "muslim" (though how it matters what you classify the religion of a new born in a secular country remains beyond me); you were told it would reveal a different father. You were told it didn't exist because he wasn't born in Hawaii. And on and on and on...

In short, rather than the symantic argument and demand for apologies occuring now, you should be demanding that the sources who so badly mislead you for all of this time apologize for wasting what little intellect you were able to marshal over this issue...

 

[headscratcher4]

Possibly helpful:


http://immigration.about.com/b/2009/02/16/presidential-sons-of-immigrants.htm

Donald Trump's mother was born in Scotland.

 

[Bob001]

Just a question, inspired by this minutiae about Hawaiian adminstrative practices: Suppose, hypothetically, you obtained your short-form birth certificate in the usual way, and for some reason you doubted its accuracy ("my mom always said Dad was my father, who's this Mortimer Snerd?")? Would you be able to demand access to the long form? Or would some official examine the long one and report back to you? It's at least conceivable that a computerized data-entry process could incorporate errors.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. (Please bear in mind that I made no claim as to whether producing this particular document was "legal" or "possible".)

1. Before its release, you had doubts that he was born in Hawaii.
2. Now you do believe it, or at least you find it probable.

My question, assuming I have captured your position correctly, is: why did you not believe one document produced by the State of Hawaii, and then believe another which confirms the first document?

This is not a trick question.

This has been ignored by all the 'Birthers' I would like to see an answer tothis as well.I wish that 'Rule 13' applied here.

 

[Sabrina]

Just a question, inspired by this minutiae about Hawaiian adminstrative practices: Suppose, hypothetically, you obtained your short-form birth certificate in the usual way, and for some reason you doubted its accuracy ("my mom always said Dad was my father, who's this Mortimer Snerd?")? Would you be able to demand access to the long form? Or would some official examine the long one and report back to you? It's at least conceivable that a computerized data-entry process could incorporate errors.

As I understand the law in Hawaii, in order to get a look at the original document you'd have to file a FOIA request stating why you want to look at it, and then you might be able to request a copy of it, but it won't be certified by the state or be usable as proof of citizenship.