Nurse suspended for prayer offer

[gdnp]

I see no problem with nurses trying to make more of a personal connection with their patients. Medicine is often criticized these days for being too impersonal and to dependent on tests and drugs and too hurried to actually treat the psychological components of disease.

Perhaps it would have been better for the nurse to ask the patient if she was religious and to thus scope out her feelings before making the offer, but really: do we really want to set up rules which hinder health care providers from demonstrating that they care about their patients on a personal level, not just as a source of a paycheck?

 

[gdnp]

However her offer of a prayer in her role as a nurse is what she did wrong, regardless of any actual offense caused to anyone.

Yet many of her patients were delighted, and no one was offended. What is wrong with a nurse delighting her patients? Is this outside of her duties? Shall we ban jokes or questions about the patient's family as outside the scope of duties as well?

 

[Darat]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Strange. I work at Sparrow Hospital in Lansing, and we have god in your face on every floor, and on some floors there are unsubtle religious displays. Go figure. I even asked the director when being given my intro tour, "Do you have to be a Christian to work here or something?" The displays are always coupled with statements of patriotism.

 

[Lucky]

I didn't say a contract of employment. There are all sorts of terms of conduct that she may have had to sign in order to be a bank nurse in the first place. It seems unlikely that there are not. If you're employing someone, even on a temporary basis, to represent you in a patient's home, would it really be the case that you don't give them any conduct guidelines whatsoever?

If she had no terms to her employment then on what grounds could they possibly suspend her? It's only misconduct if you define what conduct is.

My point was that she wasn’t subject to the normal employment conditions and rights of regular trust employees. A nurse on a permanent contract would have to be guilty (or suspected) of very serious misconduct to be suspended without pay, but in this case she could be dismissed for something very trivial (or, as I said, for no reason at all). I was explaining that we can’t infer from this extreme action by the trust that she’s suspected of any serious breach of discipline.

Being suspended from assignment from a temp agency is pretty common. Their business depends on reputation which in turn depends on the people they send out. They have a right to be picky even if it seems unfair.

She wasn’t employed by an agency; it’s an NHS bank (see link in my previous post). This is a flexible arrangement whereby nurses are offered work directly by the trust, as required (they don’t have to accept). That’s fine if it suits both parties, but there’s clearly the potential for injustice. For instance, I think it’s unjustifiable that bank nurses don’t have the same disciplinary and complaints procedures as regular staff - and trusts take advantage of it. Instead of going to the trouble and expense of adequate supervision and management of their staff, they can just sack them if any minor issue occurs. Apart from the ethics of treating nurses (or any other workers) in this way, and depriving them of the legal rights that permanent staff have, I don’t think it’s very efficient management.

She's going to have a hard time proving that type of discrimination. I would also be quite surprised if, somewhere in the bumpf she got when she took the job on, there wasn't something to do with respecting the religious beliefs and views of the patients.

However her offer of a prayer in her role as a nurse is what she did wrong, regardless of any actual offense caused to anyone.

If she was proselytising then I would see that as a very serious offence. But if the story is as she tells it (which I am inclined to think at the moment, in the absence of further evidence), then she should simply be told not to do it, and why. (Some christians don’t realise that asking christ to intervene on their behalf can be offensive to people of other religions, as well as to atheists.) It should probably be put in writing, to avoid any misunderstanding, but I’d say any kind of discipline was a bit harsh (assuming the issue hasn’t been raised with her previously).

 

[six7s]

That aside I think the trust's reaction is over the top

Perhaps, but the nurse's action was under the bottom...

My suggestion to such nurses (with belief in a personal god) would be to bear in mind the primary needs of the patients who - by definition - probably feel less than brilliant and are - often - quite capable of requesting prayers if/when so desired

For me, an unsolicited offer of prayer is akin to a nurse - lacking trust in orthodox medicine - volunteering to nip down the bookies and placing a fiver on me popping my clogs in the next X weeks

 

[gtc]

volunteering to nip down the bookies and placing a fiver on me popping my clogs in the next X weeks

You've basically described the life insurance industry.

 

[six7s]

You've basically described the life insurance industry.

Indeed

And, if/when I was in need of nursing, I'd take serious offense at any unsolicited offers of insurance

 

[jon]

My dad was in the hospital over Christmas.
1) The Nurse wrote on the whiteboard in his room. "A Savior is Born!"
2) A Santa Claus stopped by his room and gave him a tiny ornament in the shape of a church.
3) This was not a religious hospital.
4) We're Jews.

We didn't file any reports, we were pretty concentrated on his health problems, but it was damned annoying. It seems pretty extreme to make it a suspension offense, but we don't know the entire history yet.

I have a friend who is a visiting nurse. You may not be surprised to find that the regulations on behavior for nurses visiting patients in their homes are fairly strict. Caroline Petrie signed onto a job that included this rule:

'you must not use your professional status to promote causes that are not related to health'."

Which she has been breaking for years.

Likewise, non-Christian relatives of mine have been annoyed by (non-nursing) people in hospitals making more than one unsolicited offer of prayer. Certainly very far from the worst thing that someone can do, but I don't think it's professional behaviour.

I'd also wonder if people from different cultural/religious backgrounds could be unduly worried by offers of prayer. I'd associate praying for a person more with prayers for God to welcome people after their death: I appreciate that many/most Christians use prayers in other ways, but I still don't think I'd find hospital staff offering to pray for me especially comforting

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

That's a darkly funny thought but myself, I wouldn't associate that with the expectation of death at all.

Catholics are expected to pray every day- at dinner, at other meals, while repenting sins (which is usually undertaken very regularly), going to bed, for themselves, for friends, for relatives. At least in the tradition I know.

So praying for a sick person would be very usual to me. And that's whether the sick person has anything from a cough to lethal cancer.

 

[six7s]

I, too, was raised a catholic and prayed for everything and anything from spelling tests to getting lucky

However, the OP describes a significantly different scenario; the nurse is a health professional and part of nursing is providing appropriate care - physical, cultural, emotional, etc

She failed in her responsibility

How would you feel if a panel beater (auto body shop thingy in teh US?) offered to pray for speedy repairs to your crashed car?

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I believe that would be called a "automobile body work repairer" here in America.

Prayer is not harmful in and of itself. Depending on your point of view, it's either alot of help or totally harmless anyway. It's when you substitute prayer for action that it's bad.

If the nurse had refused treatment in lieu of prayer, she failed. If she worried a patient by offering to pray for him or her, she failed. If she behaved in some very inappropriate manner, she failed.

If she did all her duties and prayed, she did her job.

Same with the hypothetical repairer- if he checked your engine and changed your tires in addition to something else, he did his job.

 

[gdnp]

However, the OP describes a significantly different scenario; the nurse is a health professional and part of nursing is providing appropriate care - physical, cultural, emotional, etc

She failed in her responsibility

So the patients who were "delighted" when she offered to pray for them should be denied this benefit to their emotional health because someone might at some point in the future be offended.

bizarre.

 

[SusanB-M1]

I understand (from the BBC 'Christian Topic' board that the nurse in question had already been disciplined for handing out some sort of prayer cards.

 

[Darat]

If that is the case then I have no sympathy for her and I would say the handing out of "prayer cards" was a more serious offence.

 

[tkingdoll]

Same with the hypothetical repairer- if he checked your engine and changed your tires in addition to something else, he did his job.

Well, no. If he wagged his crotch at me, I'd be rightly moved to complain. If he picked his nose, swore, spat on the floor, made a racist comment, wore Nazi symbols, offered to give me a seeing to, asked me if my mom was single, made sexist jokes, squashed a fly against his forehead, or sang "who ate all the pies" (any or all of those things) I'd be rightly moved to complain.

It's absurd to think that 'doing a job' is only about the tasks of the job and not behaviour. Unless you own the company and don't care about your reputation, then you have every obligation to behave in a socially appropriate manner, and certainly to the rules or requirements of your employers.

In 2009 in Britain, I would say it's not socially appropriate for a healthcare giver or indeed anyone not representing a church or other religious body on official business, to offer to pray, unsolicited, for a customer. If the customer initiates the conversation that would be one thing, but isn't what happened here and this nurse has discovered the consequences of putting one's pet personal beliefs before one's duty to one's employer.

 

[six7s]

So the patients who were "delighted" when she offered to pray for them should be denied this benefit to their emotional health because someone might at some point in the future be offended.

bizarre.

Your argument - for want of much better word (like 'crap') - is bollocks - something you probably know already...

If not, try thinking, critically, about this issue and recognise that the opposition to her woo in NO WAY WHATSOEVER suggests that she and her fellow wooists can't/shouldn't supplement orthodox health care with woo... if/when a patient requests it

 

[Hokulele]

So the patients who were "delighted" when she offered to pray for them should be denied this benefit to their emotional health because someone might at some point in the future be offended.

bizarre.

It is the nurse facing discipline claiming they were "delighted", not the patients themselves.

 

[Beerina]

Can't see how this has anything to do with her religious freedom. She is employed (I assume) to provide nursing services not religious counseling.

That aside I think the trust's reaction is over the top, I wonder if there is anything more to this?

We shall see if the old money funders want the nurse treated that way or not.

Unfair. ut just for offering to pray? The proper response is "No, and please don't ask me again."

The proper response

NSFW - The Proper Response

...is "No, and I'm old and enfeebled. Have you ever heard of a "happy ending"?






Oh, wait a second. Oh my god! Wait!













Oh, whew!

n/m

 

[biomorph]

I think so. She didn't hurt anyone. She hasn't even offended anyone.

We/you don't know that, however someone thought someone might be..........so no not yet she hasn't.

If it's against company policy, then a 'memo of management concern' would be appropriate, or a discussion about it from her manager.

Just sack her, end of problem, and a strong message to the religious to keep their personal deluded nonsense out of the work place, forever thanks. Ok that's a bit OTT maybe, but hell why not?..lol

I also think you forgot to list the fact that knowing that someone is praying for them may make them feel a bit better.

maybe not if they read this....or even if they didn't...
prayer makes things worse

It doesn't seem necessarily inappropriate, but would be based on the specific individuals and situations.

It's an outright assumption that it's ok to ask to start with isn't it?, and completely inaproppriate.

Not just for the unbelievers, but those of other faiths, misbegotten as they might be too. It doesn't work, where does the word appropriate come in to it if it doesn't work at all, which it doesn't.
And yes I do know about the placebo effect. Prayer is not one IMO,..

If the majority of patients are 'delighted' by the offer, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.

Then you are blind. If she want s be a preacher, be a preacher.
If you want to be a nurse do that...

But using your position as a person who is highly likely to come in contact with vunerable sections of the community to pray for them comes into the realm of religion picking on the old, the weak, and the young.

It does this because in a moment of doubt or weakness it may infect the possibly uninfected mind of the victim.

Yes, victim, and yes infect are the correct terms to use.

C'mon Beth, you do know better than this surely?