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Nurse suspended for prayer offer

Rrose Selavy

Stranded in Sub-Atomica
Rrose Selavy
Joined
Sep 11, 2004
Messages
3,395
A Christian nurse from Weston-super-Mare has been suspended for offering to pray for a patient's recovery.
Community nurse Caroline Petrie, 45, says she asked an elderly woman patient during a home visit if she wanted her to say a prayer for her. The patient complained to the health trust about Mrs Petrie who follows the Baptist faith.
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Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, said she became a Christian following the death of her mother.
"My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life. "I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."
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Mrs Petrie says that she has taken advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith.
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more here


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7863699.stm
 
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Can't see how this has anything to do with her religious freedom. She is employed (I assume) to provide nursing services not religious counseling.

That aside I think the trust's reaction is over the top, I wonder if there is anything more to this?
 
If she's been suspended then she must be in breach of her contract, and so the action to suspend her pending an investigation is correct. However, it's worth noting that no-one was actually offended here. The woman who complained admitted she wasn't offended but was concerned that someone else might be. Well, that's likely true, but are we that afraid of offending people?

I think it's absolutely inappropriate to express religious belief to patients or mix religion and work. The one thing has nothing to do with the other. So she needs to be told not to do it. I hope it doesn't go as far as her losing her job though. Hopefully this will end in a sensible "leave your personal beliefs at home" lecture and she can get on with her job. A good nurse is more valuable than the principle of avoiding offence.
 
Oh, my. As strong as my feelings are, I wouldn't risk someone's career over a mere suggestion such as that one! I'd have said "No, thank you," and that'd be the end. Now, if she'd been harping on it, or badgering me, or it was "Jeebus, Jeebus" all the time, I might have a word.
 
If she really believes in what she says she believes, why would she need to ask the patients if they want her to pray for them? She can do her nursing work at work, and then go home, and pray for her patients at home. Everybody wins. The reason she asked her patients is not because she wanted to pray for them, but because she wanted either (a) to proselytize, even if in a subtle way, (b) to show off for them that she was going to pray for them, or (c) some other reason I haven't thought of that would also be inappropriate.

Did the trust overreact? I don't know.
 
Unfair. If the nurse, say, was a Christian Scientist and suggested prayer before medical treatment, suspending her would have been appropriate but just for offering to pray? The proper response is "No, and please don't ask me again."
 
linusrichard said:
If she really believes in what she says she believes, why would she need to ask the patients if they want her to pray for them? She can do her nursing work at work, and then go home, and pray for her patients at home. Everybody wins. The reason she asked her patients is not because she wanted to pray for them, but because she wanted either (a) to proselytize, even if in a subtle way, (b) to show off for them that she was going to pray for them, or (c) some other reason I haven't thought of that would also be inappropriate.

Did the trust overreact? I don't know.
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I think so. She didn't hurt anyone. She hasn't even offended anyone. If it's against company policy, then a 'memo of management concern' would be appropriate, or a discussion about it from her manager.

I also think you forgot to list the fact that knowing that someone is praying for them may make them feel a bit better. It doesn't seem necessarily inappropriate, but would be based on the specific individuals and situations. If the majority of patients are 'delighted' by the offer, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.
 
linusrichard said:
If she really believes in what she says she believes, why would she need to ask the patients if they want her to pray for them? She can do her nursing work at work, and then go home, and pray for her patients at home. Everybody wins. The reason she asked her patients is not because she wanted to pray for them, but because she wanted either (a) to proselytize, even if in a subtle way, (b) to show off for them that she was going to pray for them, or (c) some other reason I haven't thought of that would also be inappropriate.

Did the trust overreact? I don't know.
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Well, maybe it's that she feels she must ask permission before praying for someone. Maybe it's respect and consideration.

Or maybe she knows that for the patients who are Christian, it's heart-warming to know that someone is praying for you.
 
Beth said:
I think so. She didn't hurt anyone. She hasn't even offended anyone. If it's against company policy, then a 'memo of management concern' would be appropriate, or a discussion about it from her manager.
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Unless this wasn't the first time, or there were more than the one complaint. As well, if the sick woman felt strongly enough to actually report it (thinking it might offend others), it does call into question how casual the offer was.

I can't count the number of bar fights I've seen turn into 'just a casual discussion that may have gotten a little excited' when the cops show up.
 
But if a request for prayer is later withdrawn due to a breach of the employment contract does God then say

"alrighty, if you say so, omnipresent/omni everything thing else or not..." you aint gettin anyof my miracle stuff then I don't want to get into trouble....
 
tkingdoll said:
If she's been suspended then she must be in breach of her contract, and so the action to suspend her pending an investigation is correct.
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She’s a bank nurse, so there isn’t a contract of employment.

bank nurses are not regular employees and have no entitlement to guaranteed or continuous employment
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employment rights are generally confined to employees (people working under a contract of employment) and do not cover bank nurses. Bank nurses have no right to maternity leave, have no redundancy rights, and are not able to claim unfair dismissal in an employment tribunal.
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The trust can suspend her without pay or dismiss her on the spot, for any minor offence, without having followed its normal disciplinary procedures. Or for no reason at all (provided it’s not a case of legally prohibited discrimination, such as race).


Darat said:
Can't see how this has anything to do with her religious freedom. She is employed (I assume) to provide nursing services not religious counseling.

That aside I think the trust's reaction is over the top, I wonder if there is anything more to this?
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I think there could be a religious discrimination issue. It seems that she said something inappropriate to a patient, who wasn’t offended. Would someone making a remark of a similar level of inappropriateness and ‘offence’ that had no religious connection be treated in the same way? If not, then she does have a case that she was discriminated against on religious grounds.

Of course, there may be more to it than we’ve been told, but it’s not at all implausible as it stands. Trusts often do take advantage of their bank nurses’ lack of employment rights to treat them unreasonably. And trust managers and HR people often make decisions devoid of common sense. imo the crucial point is whether she had been warned previously about this behaviour (typical BBC journalism that this isn't mentioned). If not, I think the trust’s action is completely unjustified – though I don’t know whether she’d have any legal case.


slingblade said:
Oh, my. As strong as my feelings are, I wouldn't risk someone's career over a mere suggestion such as that one! I'd have said "No, thank you," and that'd be the end. Now, if she'd been harping on it, or badgering me, or it was "Jeebus, Jeebus" all the time, I might have a word.
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It doesn’t read to me as though the patient meant to make an official complaint – which makes the trust’s action even more over the top.
 
My dad was in the hospital over Christmas.
1) The Nurse wrote on the whiteboard in his room. "A Savior is Born!"
2) A Santa Claus stopped by his room and gave him a tiny ornament in the shape of a church.
3) This was not a religious hospital.
4) We're Jews.

We didn't file any reports, we were pretty concentrated on his health problems, but it was damned annoying. It seems pretty extreme to make it a suspension offense, but we don't know the entire history yet.

I have a friend who is a visiting nurse. You may not be surprised to find that the regulations on behavior for nurses visiting patients in their homes are fairly strict. Caroline Petrie signed onto a job that included this rule:

'you must not use your professional status to promote causes that are not related to health'."

Which she has been breaking for years.
 
I may be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that it happened exactly as the article implies. My guess would be that something was left out of the article, such as this is not the nurse's first offense, or she was pushing her faith more than this article implies.

While I do think that a heath care professional should not be pushing their religion on others, I think a warning would be appropriate in this situation. Perhaps if she had recieved warnings before, then a suspension, or firing would be reasonable.
 
If the woman who complained wasn't offended, but was worried that other people may be, perhaps Ms. Petrie's offer of prayer was coming on a little stronger than cheery and conversational. I don't think she should lose her job over this, but I definitely believe she should be ordered to curtail the activity.

Nobody needs to be proselytizing to others in their place of business, and certainly not when that place of business is other people's homes. I never allow religious solicitors into my home, and I'd hate to let in a visiting nurse and find out that religion was her sideline.
 
Lucky said:
She’s a bank nurse, so there isn’t a contract of employment.
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I didn't say a contract of employment. There are all sorts of terms of conduct that she may have had to sign in order to be a bank nurse in the first place. It seems unlikely that there are not. If you're employing someone, even on a temporary basis, to represent you in a patient's home, would it really be the case that you don't give them any conduct guidelines whatsoever?

If she had no terms to her employment then on what grounds could they possibly suspend her? It's only misconduct if you define what conduct is.
 
GodMark2 said:
Unless this wasn't the first time, or there were more than the one complaint. As well, if the sick woman felt strongly enough to actually report it (thinking it might offend others), it does call into question how casual the offer was.

I can't count the number of bar fights I've seen turn into 'just a casual discussion that may have gotten a little excited' when the cops show up.
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Most arguments, fights, rows are actually exactly that. A simple situation that got way out of control and turned into something no one wanted and for which they are actually totally willing to bury the hatchet.

Almost all situations the police are called to started over total, total BS. Or a case of "total nonsense being the last straw".
 
slingblade said:
Oh, my. As strong as my feelings are, I wouldn't risk someone's career over a mere suggestion such as that one! I'd have said "No, thank you," and that'd be the end. Now, if she'd been harping on it, or badgering me, or it was "Jeebus, Jeebus" all the time, I might have a word.
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And as a skeptic, I doubt the news account tells the story with much accuracy.

If it was overkill evangelizing, time to go.

If it was an employer unaware confused elderly people can exaggerate their perception of overkill evangelizing, shouldn't have happened.

If said nurse has been warned numerous times, time to go.

One is unlikely to know the full circumstances from the news article.
 
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Being suspended from assignment from a temp agency is pretty common. Their business depends on reputation which in turn depends on the people they send out. They have a right to be picky even if it seems unfair.

And from the article, Ms Petrie appears full of enthusiasm for God's work. That may be a clue this was more than an offer of a simple prayer. Maybe she droned on and on throughout the visit.
 
Lucky said:
...snip...

I think there could be a religious discrimination issue. It seems that she said something inappropriate to a patient, who wasn’t offended. Would someone making a remark of a similar level of inappropriateness and ‘offence’ that had no religious connection be treated in the same way? If not, then she does have a case that she was discriminated against on religious grounds.

...snip...
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She's going to have a hard time proving that type of discrimination. I would also be quite surprised if, somewhere in the bumpf she got when she took the job on, there wasn't something to do with respecting the religious beliefs and views of the patients.

However her offer of a prayer in her role as a nurse is what she did wrong, regardless of any actual offense caused to anyone.
 
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