Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

Moving right along, it might be helpful to attempt to summarise the points so far I think we can agree on:

Existing nuclear fission is cheaper per unit energy than existing renewables, but produces waste which is dangerous in the long term.

Existing nuclear fission fuel supplies are known to be good for fifty years, perhaps a little more. Past that point efficiency decreases and before too long fission will not be advantageous compared to renewables. There are unproven proposals to get more uranium from other sources, but nothing that has yet been demonstrated to be cost-effective.

Unless there does turn out to be another source of fission fuel which is economically viable, building more fission plants will just mean we hit the wall sooner.

I think we've got consensus on those points, but I could be wrong.

So the solution to the future shortage of fission fuel is to find new sources of uranium like getting it out of seawater (if it works, great), or reprocessing the existing leftovers. However this too is more expensive than mining and refining uranium ore.

Question One: How do the numbers stack up comparing reprocessing nuclear leftovers to building more of the existing renewables? I take it as given that any cost breaks you assume for reprocessing (scale, technological advances and so on) apply also to the renewables.

Next point, conventional breeder reactors have inherent safety risks and proliferation risks. It's been stated that other alternative reactor models can be built so that they do not produce material which is ideal for weapons, can use existing leftovers and/or produce more fuel fission reactors can use.

Question Two: Ideally we'd have a reactor that used existing leftovers, was proven cost-efficient compared to renewables without convenient assumptions, and could not be used as a stepping stone to nuclear weapons by a state that was so inclined. Is there any such beast?

If the answer to those questions is "Yes, reprocessing waste is proven to be cheaper than building solar panels (or whatever)" and "Yes, there's an ideal reactor model that solves all our problems at once" then the case for nuclear power would be close to ironclad.

On the other hand if there is no reason to believe that nuclear is going to be any cheaper than renewable in fifty years time however you work it, and that nuclear is always going to be a proliferation risk if deployed outside the existing nuclear weapons club, then the long-term solution to the world's power needs has to be based on wind, solar or something of the sort with nuclear only being used in the niches where renewables cannot be made to work cost-effectively.

I don't agree with everything here. Specifically about the shortage of uranium. MIT assumed 1500 reactors for their analysis.

http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/

For nuclear to be viable long term...past the 50-60 years on the once through fuel system, a series of nuclear plants and reprocessing plants would need to be built. Essentially, in a group of 4-5 reactors, there would need to be one breeder and enough reprocessing capacity to fuel the other 3-4 plants with the fuel bred. This has not been done anywhere--as a result, the engineering costs would be large...but...the technology exists as it has been done previously.

question one: I don't think there is enough evidence to compare renewables with reprocessing fuel. There are very few reprocessing plants and they are not operating on a big enough scale to compare with renewables.

Conventional breeder reactors do not have inherent safety risks. I have shown evidence to that in past posts. In fact EBRII proved the fuel can be made inherently safe in a loss of coolant accident...which is a worst case senario.

As far as proliferation, I certainly don't expect countries outside the existing nuclear powers to be building breeder reactors. The major concern would be theft in place where the fuel is not secure--possibly in Russia. But then the roque elements would need one heck of a lab to reprocess that fuel and it wouldn't be truly weapons grade...it would be reactor grade...see the following:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/pu-isotope.htm

If a country was going to attempt to construct a bomb, the course of action would be to build a production reactor--which is very much easier than reprocessing spent fuel. India did this and it appears as if pakistan is doing so as well, however, their initial weapons were made by enriching uranium. Iran's program is probably building a production reactor now.

question two: Integral fast reactors can do this: they can burn up the vast majority of the transuranic waste--especially the Plutonium. It is not new technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_Fast_Reactor

Finally, I don't think this can be an one or the other situation. We will need both renewable and nuclear power...and anything else we can use to generate electricity and heat. Even Bazil with their ethanol program is going to come up against some hard issues in the future with exhaustion of the land along with growing population...etc.

glenn
 
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Sure. That's a decision for the future, anyway. We need to throw a lot of resources into retrofits, public transit, better efficiency standards in everything from cars to refrigerators to standby modes. We have so much work that obviously needs doing anyway that we don't really need to think about the exact proportions of our ultimate energy mix.

And who's going to pay for all this, eh ?
 
I don't agree with everything here. Specifically about the shortage of uranium. MIT assumed 1500 reactors for their analysis.

Noted.

For nuclear to be viable long term...past the 50-60 years on the once through fuel system, a series of nuclear plants and reprocessing plants would need to be built. Essentially, in a group of 4-5 reactors, there would need to be one breeder and enough reprocessing capacity to fuel the other 3-4 plants with the fuel bred. This has not been done anywhere--as a result, the engineering costs would be large...but...the technology exists as it has been done previously.

question one: I don't think there is enough evidence to compare renewables with reprocessing fuel. There are very few reprocessing plants and they are not operating on a big enough scale to compare with renewables.

Well, that's a useful conclusion at least. Nobody really knows if reprocessing is cost-competitive with solar panels and wind turbines and so forth.

question two: Integral fast reactors can do this: they can burn up the vast majority of the transuranic waste--especially the Plutonium. It is not new technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_Fast_Reactor

Hang on a sec, this isn't quite answering the question as it was asked.

Firstly the page you link to says that construction only ever started on one prototype of this kind of plant, and it was cancelled three years before it was completed. The reasons for the cancellation are not given. So saying "it is not a new technology" seems to me to be a very carefully chosen half-truth. It would have been a decade-old technology had construction gone ahead, but as it is it is just a plan on paper.

Secondly I specified a reactor that used existing nuclear leftovers and it's not clear from the site you linked to where the fuel for these things comes from.

Thirdly I specified a reactor that is known to be more cost-effective than existing renewables and nobody has any idea how much these things would cost to build and run in reality because it has never been done.

It's good that there is a design on paper that is not a proliferation risk, but that alone is not going to solve the world's energy problems.

This is exactly the logical mis-step I was just talking about, attempting to compare a speculative technology to a concrete one. Oh, and RecoveringYuppy? This right here is a perfect example of a speculative nuke.

Funding such a reactor as a research and development expense could be defensible, assuming people who know more than I do crunched the numbers and concluded that it looked promising once you have taken cradle-to-grave costs into consideration. However advancing such a reactor as an alternative to existing renewables for a current problem is irrational.
 
Just poking around looking for reprocessing costs, all the first 5 items Google delivered were not promising. And there's this one statement that settles a previous confusion:

If reprocessing is undertaken only to reduce the radioactive level of spent fuel it should be taken into account that spent nuclear fuel becomes less radioactive over time. After 40 years its radioactivity drops by 99.9% [18], though it still takes over a thousand years for the level of radioactivity to approach that of natural uranium [19].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reprocessing

The note refers to the World Nuclear Association, which would have no reason to inflate the numbers.
 
.....snip...


Hang on a sec, this isn't quite answering the question as it was asked.

Firstly the page you link to says that construction only ever started on one prototype of this kind of plant, and it was cancelled three years before it was completed. The reasons for the cancellation are not given. So saying "it is not a new technology" seems to me to be a very carefully chosen half-truth. It would have been a decade-old technology had construction gone ahead, but as it is it is just a plan on paper.

Secondly I specified a reactor that used existing nuclear leftovers and it's not clear from the site you linked to where the fuel for these things comes from.

Thirdly I specified a reactor that is known to be more cost-effective than existing renewables and nobody has any idea how much these things would cost to build and run in reality because it has never been done.

It's good that there is a design on paper that is not a proliferation risk, but that alone is not going to solve the world's energy problems.

This is exactly the logical mis-step I was just talking about, attempting to compare a speculative technology to a concrete one. Oh, and RecoveringYuppy? This right here is a perfect example of a speculative nuke.

Funding such a reactor as a research and development expense could be defensible, assuming people who know more than I do crunched the numbers and concluded that it looked promising once you have taken cradle-to-grave costs into consideration. However advancing such a reactor as an alternative to existing renewables for a current problem is irrational.

Sorry, I should have elaborated on the reactors. (stuff that's been in my head for a long time...)

What is not really known by many is that the first nuclear power plant producing electricity was a fast breeder reactor. It was a loop type of design where the sodium flowed through pipes to the reactor. It operated without any safety systems for a longtime. It had a reasonable breeding ratio and used pu as fuel. It proved the breeding principle and a few other things. I toured it a long time ago as it is a museum now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBR-I

The next design was EBRII--a larger plant with about 20 MW electric output. The design was different from EBRI as it was a pool type design. The reactor was submerged in a pool of sodium as were pumps and other components. This was built to prove several things...one was onsite fuel reprocessing and fuel manufacturing, which is what the idea of what your question 2 was--at least my interpretation. EBRII successfully proved this principle. They made there own fuel with the "waste" out of the reactor. This is why I say the technology exists, but it hasn't had large scale commercial application--therefore, the cost would be nebulous. This reactor can take the spent fuel from LWRs and make a MOX type of fuel leaving in all the transuranics and other junk and burn it up continueing to breed a bit and burn a bit. This is why I consider them a benefit to reduce proliferation by burning up all the uranium and plutonium on the planet. However, it would take such a long time, so that probably isn't justified.

Most importantly, EBRII proved inherently safe fuel. The reactor was brought to full power and the sodium drained without tripping the control rods. The reactor shut itself down and the configuration inside the fuel pellets separated within the fuel pins so the fuel wouldn't melt. (really cool if you ask me.) Bill Clinton shut down the project right after we got the best answer ever for nuclear power--a reactor that is inherently safe during a complete loss of coolant. This is the only part the doesn't really have as much experience. The fuel would be a metal alloy...It was tested and worked, then the project was shut down. The plants can still burn MOX fuel which there is ample experience, but it loses the inherent safety and needs normal safety systems.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBR-II

Now, Clinch River was a nightmare back in the 70s. It was going to be the first full scale fast breeder with a loop type design. Political decisions about proliferation shut the plant project down. This, along with the cheap cost of uranium and the fact that by the 80s, all utilities cancelled all the reactors. Breeders were deemed unneeded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinch_River_Breeder_Reactor_Project

The French have the phenix reactor which is still operating but shutdown their superphenix plant as it had design issues and political concerns--along with cheap uranium. The French reprocess the fuel into MOX and burn it in their plants and other plants in Europe and Japan. So the technology is even more proven in Europe.

http://www.uic.com.au/nip42.htm

As I said in a previous post, the only plants that have approval from the NRC in the states are AP1000, sys80+ and the ABWR from GE. There is no breeder design that is advanced enough to be considered for licensing. And not enough engineers have fast reactor experience either to go starting something now. It would take govt subsidy to kick start the program and it certainly won't be popular. I don't have much hope for the US congress to understand the issue anyhow. Based on the MIT report of having sufficient uranium for 1500 reactors makes the point moot for a bit--as stated in the report.

These types of reactors would breed reactor grade Pu which, if you read the link I provided, it isn't very good for bomb material. One can still be made but you would still have to steal the very hot fuel and have one heck of lab to extract the Pu. It would make a bomb that would just fizzle.

Sooooooooo, nothing new, nothing speculative. We have proven technology--it is being used right now and I think 30+ years of experience is sufficient. The only thing to do is deploy it on a large commercial scale--which always has unknow costs involved.

glenn
 
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Here is the best comprehensive chart I could find for electrical use across sectors. This is for California in 2002. I would have to think it's probably a good representative example of roughly what you'd find in other states and roughly what you'd find in other industrial countries as well.

As you ca seen, a large portion is in areas which are just not easily addressed. Lighting makes up a decent chunk, but how much can you save with more effecient lighting? Less than 50% savings, especially considering commercial already uses mostly florescent lights.

Heating and cooling makes up a relatively small chunk, and it's unknown how much you could really save there. If you have more effecient heat management for frigdes then mabe you could save a bit. But still... no matter how generous you are, you're doing well to squeeze a few percent savings out.

California has a very efficient economy. They've kept per capita electrical demand steady for over 30 years. Their energy prices are high and as a result their industrial base is small and efficient. Ontario's industry is much larger, with 1.5% of the customers responsible for 55% of the electrical demand. It's tempting to say that we could get the kinds of cuts that California has, where all industry put together uses 20%, a walloping 35% decrease from industry alone, but I know this isn't right. While some industry in California has definitely become more efficient, some industries have simply moved away. Some may well be enjoying a carbon feeding frenzy in China.

You're right, there is a huge portion on this chart that isn't easily addressed. Mostly because it's completely undefined. Residential and industrial categories each have substantial "other" categories, which together with miscellaneous commercial and a general "other" category make up 38% of the pie. In addition there are broad categories like "agriculture/pumping" and "process" which are also difficult to attack for lack of detail, and 2% for "compressed air" which I'll admit to ignorance on, and ask anyone who knows anything about this to help me out on this tiny percentage.

That leaves 45% that really can be addressed because it's sufficiently clear. Of that 45%, space conditioning, which is the easiest thing to attack, and can be reduced by 100%, accounts for 1/3 of what we know. That's pretty good.

Lighting accounts for 24% of the total pot. As this link points out:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cbecs/lit-type.html

electrical demand for residential lighting could be reduced by 35% if we only replaced existing incandescents that operate more than 4 hours daily with compact fluorescents. The potential is obviously higher, but that's a reduction of 3% off the total. The same article points out that demand from existing commercial fluorescents could be reduced by 20% by moving to T8 ballasts instead of the standard T12s. Commercial incandescents that moved to T8 directly could realize savings of 60%. Given their distribution for commercial as 77% fluorescent and 14% incandescent, we get combined savings of 24% from the commercial lighting sector or 3% from the big pot.

So far I'm getting reductions of 21% of only the 45% we know about. Not bad. But when it comes to lighting, we're still thinking inside the box, especially for commercial/industrial. The newest terminal of Toronto's Pearson Airport is daylit on all 3 levels, reducing daytime lighting costs to negligible levels. Retrofitting existing structures would not be particularly difficult, since most industrial and commercial facilities exist on a single level. One thing I do know about industry is that lighting can be more focused where it is needed, doing away with broad lighting across whole buildings. Much higher savings are easily achievable if we have the will.

Then we get to the last category we can address, domestic refrigeration, which accounts for 6% of the total. As this link points out:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/reps/enduse/er01_us.html

a new refrigerator in 2001 used just 38% of the energy of the average refrigerator in the US. So it's tempting to say that efficiency in domestic refrigerators could reduce the total part of the pot by a further 4%, but that would be wrong, because the chart is for California. California is singlehandedly responsible, with their refrigerator efficiency program (funding the purchase of the most efficient models every year) for driving refrigerator efficiency up across North America. They are very proud of the fact that so far, this conservation program has delivered savings in California alone equivalent to the total output of all the nuclear power plants in the United States, and at a significantly lower cost than it would have taken to build all those plants:

http://energypriorities.com/entries/2006/02/california_energy_commissioner.php

So Californians as a group already have the most efficient refrigerators. Bad news for dropping the numbers on this particular chart, but good news overall. Because across the rest of America, there are plenty of savings to be had just by adopting California standards. Another reason why this is extremely good news is that other big states and provinces can tackle other appliances. New York can tackle washing machines, Texas can do air conditioners, Massachusetts can do lighting, and so on.

Refrigerator efficiencies have improved in an almost unbelievable way. In 1972, the average refrigerator had a UEC of 1986 kWh. By 2001, the UEC was 476 kWh. That's a reduction of 76% over less than 30 years, when conservation wasn't the priority it should be now. And over that time period, average refrigerator sizes have more than doubled. If we applied this kind of program to a variety of common appliances, the savings would be tremendous.

The EIA link I pointed you to gives a breakdown of domestic electricity sources. The big enumerated ones would all benefit from being targeted for efficiency standards. A lot of the smaller ones are pretty discretionary, and could just be hit by high energy prices. We'd all have the same energy bills, because even though the cost per kWh would be higher, we'd be using fewer kilowatts. That is the point the California Energy Commission makes. Their overall energy bills are about the same as the US average, even though their unit costs are substantially higher.

I think I'll stop blathering now. I hope you get the idea.
 
Sorry, I should have elaborated on the reactors. (stuff that's been in my head for a long time...)

What is not really known by many is that the first nuclear power plant producing electricity was a fast breeder reactor. It was a loop type of design where the sodium flowed through pipes to the reactor. It operated without any safety systems for a longtime. It had a reasonable breeding ratio and used pu as fuel. It proved the breeding principle and a few other things. I toured it a long time ago as it is a museum now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBR-I

The next design was EBRII--a larger plant with about 20 MW electric output. The design was different from EBRI as it was a pool type design. The reactor was submerged in a pool of sodium as were pumps and other components. This was built to prove several things...one was onsite fuel reprocessing and fuel manufacturing, which is what the idea of what your question 2 was--at least my interpretation. EBRII successfully proved this principle. They made there own fuel with the "waste" out of the reactor. This is why I say the technology exists, but it hasn't had large scale commercial application--therefore, the cost would be nebulous. This reactor can take the spent fuel from LWRs and make a MOX type of fuel leaving in all the transuranics and other junk and burn it up continueing to breed a bit and burn a bit. This is why I consider them a benefit to reduce proliferation by burning up all the uranium and plutonium on the planet. However, it would take such a long time, so that probably isn't justified.

Most importantly, EBRII proved inherently safe fuel. The reactor was brought to full power and the sodium drained without tripping the control rods. The reactor shut itself down and the configuration inside the fuel pellets separated within the fuel pins so the fuel wouldn't melt. (really cool if you ask me.) Bill Clinton shut down the project right after we got the best answer ever for nuclear power--a reactor that is inherently safe during a complete loss of coolant. This is the only part the doesn't really have as much experience. The fuel would be a metal alloy...It was tested and worked, then the project was shut down. The plants can still burn MOX fuel which there is ample experience, but it loses the inherent safety and needs normal safety systems.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBR-II

Now, Clinch River was a nightmare back in the 70s. It was going to be the first full scale fast breeder with a loop type design. Political decisions about proliferation shut the plant project down. This, along with the cheap cost of uranium and the fact that by the 80s, all utilities cancelled all the reactors. Breeders were deemed unneeded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinch_River_Breeder_Reactor_Project

The French have the phenix reactor which is still operating but shutdown their superphenix plant as it had design issues and political concerns--along with cheap uranium. The French reprocess the fuel into MOX and burn it in their plants and other plants in Europe and Japan. So the technology is even more proven in Europe.

http://www.uic.com.au/nip42.htm

As I said in a previous post, the only plants that have approval from the NRC in the states are AP1000, sys80+ and the ABWR from GE. There is no breeder design that is advanced enough to be considered for licensing. And not enough engineers have fast reactor experience either to go starting something now. It would take govt subsidy to kick start the program and it certainly won't be popular. I don't have much hope for the US congress to understand the issue anyhow. Based on the MIT report of having sufficient uranium for 1500 reactors makes the point moot for a bit--as stated in the report.

These types of reactors would breed reactor grade Pu which, if you read the link I provided, it isn't very good for bomb material. One can still be made but you would still have to steal the very hot fuel and have one heck of lab to extract the Pu. It would make a bomb that would just fizzle.

Sooooooooo, nothing new, nothing speculative. We have proven technology--it is being used right now and I think 30+ years of experience is sufficient. The only thing to do is deploy it on a large commercial scale--which always has unknow costs involved.

glenn



Good info. However, I think metal cooled breeders are probably overkill both in terms of complexity and other factors and licensing for power generation at the moment. It's hard enough getting a pressurized water reactor approved and built.

But I'm going to have to look more into the coolant loss and the fuel safety. That looks really damn cool
 
Glenn, again I'm going to mention the solar hybrid PV/thermal panels, that have likewise been tested and work. And like with breeders, the question is what the costs would be per kWh to deploy them on a large scale. We seem unable to agree on the relative costs of technology that's up and running now. This is an avenue I'd prefer to avoid for that reason.

But if you really want to go there, I think it doesn't bode particularly well for nuclear. Every article I've read indicates that the economics for plants that use reprocessed fuel don't look good given anything close to the current price of uranium. By contrast developments in renewables tend to bring the price down.
 
Sooooooooo, nothing new, nothing speculative. We have proven technology--it is being used right now and I think 30+ years of experience is sufficient. The only thing to do is deploy it on a large commercial scale--which always has unknow costs involved.

Thanks for all the good info.

I think we're using "proven" in two different ways though. It's proven these reactors are physically possible, which is always a good start.

What's not proven is that they are cost-effective compared to existing renewable technologies which are already producing power. It's not a criticism of nuclear technology in particular to say this, but it's a fact.

I think that's a hole in any nuclear advocate's argument that is going to need some serious attention. If one is to advocate developing these things as a solution to climate change or energy shortages then one needs some justification for the belief that they are actually going to be a better solution than existing systems like solar and wind.

To quote Belz, "And who's going to pay for all this, eh?". Getting these technologies to the stage where we can make intelligent estimates of their real costs and benefits is not going to be free either. I'm not saying it's something we should not look at, but I am definitely saying that pointing to nuclear as a better solution than renewables is premature if you can't give reason to believe it's even going to be cheaper.
 
OK, so it costs how much?

So, how much does nuke plant plant cost over it's life? (For the sake of argument, a current, approved design, once-through fuel plant).

And how much would a comperable total energy output windfarm, solar plant, tidal plant etc cost over their lives, assuming the same lifetime.

How long would the equivalent output plants take to build, assuming you could "break ground" right now? (no arguing about this assumption, please!)

If possible, do take into account parts production and the availablity of the materials required. e.g. Don't try to use up a significant portion of the available production of copper (or other materials) in one go.
 
Good info. However, I think metal cooled breeders are probably overkill both in terms of complexity and other factors and licensing for power generation at the moment. It's hard enough getting a pressurized water reactor approved and built.

But I'm going to have to look more into the coolant loss and the fuel safety. That looks really damn cool

Since there is no licensed design, it would obviously be a long time before one would get built in the US. There is still a lot of fear with the whole concept of a breeder and the proliferation thing even though it is more political than a real issue.

As far as the metal fuel with the inherent safety features, there isn't enough data to scale up to a full sized plant at this point, so we would need a prototype or just burn MOX fuel. EBRII could have been used for long term test of the fuel and its operational characteristics. The idea of getting over 99% of the energy out of the fuel is just fantastic when compared with a once through fuel design.

As far as complexity...I don't see it being more from a design standpoint than an LWR, however, maintenance with the sodium is a pain and having qualified people would also be a problem with design and operation.

If we look at the MIT report, 1500 reactors would required about 400 breeders...we really don't have enough engineers. And 1500 reactors is just a dream.

glenn
 
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Partial response to Pidge.

Here's a site that puts the cost of wind at 8 cents per kWh all-in:

http://www.airtricity.ca/en/faqs/

This site puts it at 5 cents with a production credit of 1.5 cents, total 6.5 cents per kWh:

http://www.awea.org/faq/wwt_costs.html#How much does wind energy cost

This European site puts it at 2-4p/kWh, cheaper than all other generation options, including coal if health and environmental costs of coal are included:

http://www.earthfuture.com/seconomy/sei20.asp

Here's a Louisiana offshore proposal. Offshore projects are more costly per kWh, and the link outlines the reasons why. Still, the break-even point is 4.2 cents per kWh. However, because wind turbines tend to be built for profit, it only becomes attractive to investors at 8 cents per kWh:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...Wh&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

I think the price assumptions for nuclear are going to vary like mad. If you look at a Korean plant, you're going to get a completely different price than you would if you looked at Okiluoto. Nuclear proponents will suggest that Korea can be reproduced worldwide. Nuclear opponents will point to Okiluoto and point out that 18 months into construction it was 18 months behind schedule, and that Areva is being sued for fraud for illegally subsidizing construction.

Hope this helps.
 
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Thanks for all the good info.

I think we're using "proven" in two different ways though. It's proven these reactors are physically possible, which is always a good start.

What's not proven is that they are cost-effective compared to existing renewable technologies which are already producing power. It's not a criticism of nuclear technology in particular to say this, but it's a fact.

I think that's a hole in any nuclear advocate's argument that is going to need some serious attention. If one is to advocate developing these things as a solution to climate change or energy shortages then one needs some justification for the belief that they are actually going to be a better solution than existing systems like solar and wind.

To quote Belz, "And who's going to pay for all this, eh?". Getting these technologies to the stage where we can make intelligent estimates of their real costs and benefits is not going to be free either. I'm not saying it's something we should not look at, but I am definitely saying that pointing to nuclear as a better solution than renewables is premature if you can't give reason to believe it's even going to be cheaper.

Actually, I think we are missing a good portion of the point by focusing too much on cost right now. As I have stated in the past, we need all forms of energy to get the job done. Cost difference are going to be meaningless with coming energy problem. The world uses over 400 quads of energy every year and most of it comes from fossil fuel. Focusing solely on cost and making this an either or issue is the problem. We have to put all this together if we are going to avoid real bad problems in the world. The technology and lifestyle for the planet are based on cheap oil and lots of cheap energy and no one can or should deny this issue is getting close to being very big problem.

Renewables have not been cost effective--many links have been posted showing this. They produce a small amount of power at high cost and subsidies are what have kept them going. And I think that is OK because we are going to need them. At least wind technology has finally improved to a point where it is reasonable.

About the proven thingy...I agree that cost effective part is still open to debate since the world hasn't built a fleet of them. The first few plants will be expensive. However, the plant don't need to be deployed immediately. Actually, I expect to be dead or very old before we have one.

When I say proven: We are burning MOX fuel now. Reprocessing technology is available. A plant can be built that will do what we want...ie reprocess fuel on site... burn MOX or metal fuel...get rid of Pu and other transuranics...There is not as much need for proof-of-principle testing.

glenn
 
Glenn, again I'm going to mention the solar hybrid PV/thermal panels, that have likewise been tested and work. And like with breeders, the question is what the costs would be per kWh to deploy them on a large scale. We seem unable to agree on the relative costs of technology that's up and running now. This is an avenue I'd prefer to avoid for that reason.

But if you really want to go there, I think it doesn't bode particularly well for nuclear. Every article I've read indicates that the economics for plants that use reprocessed fuel don't look good given anything close to the current price of uranium. By contrast developments in renewables tend to bring the price down.

See my response to Kevin's post...it covers much of what you posted here.

Actually, reprocessing spent fuel is not that bad when it comes to removing Pu and reusing it. The cost of the plant is not related to the reprocessing issue. Plants are designed to run with once through uranium and with MOX fuel without any modifications. Even some old plants can be modified to use MOX fuel with only small changes.

Anyhow, here is a good list of advanced reactors. It gives expected cost to deliver...but I wouldn't take those numbers as cast in concrete...steal reinforced concrete.

http://www.uic.com.au/nip16.htm

glenn
 
Another evaluation of the cost of wind power that says it's 1.2 cents more than coal if properly accounted:

Is wind power too expensive?
What really matters is the cost to society. With current subsidy methods, it costs around 3¢/kWh of subsidy to get wind turbines built. But this is because the up-front costs of wind turbines are huge and the payback takes twenty years. Investors require fast paybacks and this "costs" extra. But this is not a social cost. Much of that money is just a transfer to stock-holders. By evaluating a different subsidy method, a more accurate social cost can be found and it is only 1.2¢/kWh.

Although the amount of wind that could be installed this cheaply is limited, it is interesting to ask how much it would cost to solve the global warming problem if all GHG reductions could be accomplished so cheaply. The answer is they could be eliminated for a cost of $81 billion per year. That is 0.63% of GDP, and considerably cheaper than the Iraq war.
 
This is exactly the logical mis-step I was just talking about, attempting to compare a speculative technology to a concrete one. Oh, and RecoveringYuppy? This right here is a perfect example of a speculative nuke.

Funding such a reactor as a research and development expense could be defensible, assuming people who know more than I do crunched the numbers and concluded that it looked promising once you have taken cradle-to-grave costs into consideration. However advancing such a reactor as an alternative to existing renewables for a current problem is irrational.
If you'll read further in to the article you'll see that most of the IFR concepts have been tested at Argonne National labs. Not exactly my idea of "speculative". It certainly isn't ready for mass deployment either though.
 
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If you'll read further in to the article you'll see that most of the IFR concepts have been tested at Argonne National labs. Not exactly my idea of "speculative". It certainly isn't ready for mass deployment either though.

I think again this is just a matter of us using one word two different ways.

The distinction I was aiming for was that wind and solar (and coal, and oil, and old school fission...) have been deployed in real-world business situations and there is empirical data about how much money you have to put in and how much energy you get back out.

If a new technology is still in the lab at best then you can only speculate about the costs and benefits of a real installation.
 
Actually, I think we are missing a good portion of the point by focusing too much on cost right now. As I have stated in the past, we need all forms of energy to get the job done. Cost difference are going to be meaningless with coming energy problem. The world uses over 400 quads of energy every year and most of it comes from fossil fuel. Focusing solely on cost and making this an either or issue is the problem. We have to put all this together if we are going to avoid real bad problems in the world. The technology and lifestyle for the planet are based on cheap oil and lots of cheap energy and no one can or should deny this issue is getting close to being very big problem.

If you've got a hungry family to feed and a limited budget you buy more rice than caviar. You don't say "cost differences are going to be meaningless because we will be really hungry" or "we are going to need all forms of food to get the job done" and then spend half your food budget on caviar.

If there is really a crisis, or there is really going to be a crisis, then surely we should be spending the available money on the most efficient forms of power generation?

Of course if there is a crisis we should also put a significant amount of money into research to figure out new and better ways of generating electricity. That is an investment not a luxury. However there's a lot of difference between "we should invest in nuclear because it is efficient!" and "we should invest in research in nuclear because it's conceivable it might turn out to be efficient".

Renewables have not been cost effective--many links have been posted showing this. They produce a small amount of power at high cost and subsidies are what have kept them going. And I think that is OK because we are going to need them. At least wind technology has finally improved to a point where it is reasonable.

They have not been cost effective compared to coal, or oil, or according to some stories fission, so in that sense they are not cost-effective. Then again, that ignores global warming as a cost and assumes oil prices will remain where they are.

About the proven thingy...I agree that cost effective part is still open to debate since the world hasn't built a fleet of them. The first few plants will be expensive. However, the plant don't need to be deployed immediately. Actually, I expect to be dead or very old before we have one.

When I say proven: We are burning MOX fuel now. Reprocessing technology is available. A plant can be built that will do what we want...ie reprocess fuel on site... burn MOX or metal fuel...get rid of Pu and other transuranics...There is not as much need for proof-of-principle testing.

I agree with all that. These things are physically possible, and we have a pretty good idea how to make them happen. The question is whether investing in these technologies is a better or worse investment than investing in renewables.
 
They have not been cost effective compared to coal, or oil, or according to some stories fission, so in that sense they are not cost-effective. Then again, that ignores global warming as a cost and assumes oil prices will remain where they are.

Oil is generally not the issue. Few countries, outside of those which product a lot of oil to begin with, use oil as a major component of power generation. IT's just not worth it. In the US they have some oil fired boilers but they're only used as "peekers." They are less than 10% of capacity in the us. I believe it's the same in most other countries.

AS for the "cost" of global warming, that's the argument which comes up all the time, but you're assuming that there is some imediate losses from it which can be recouped by some immediate means. It doesn't generally work that way in politics. You can't compare it in terms of dollars or euros. It's more of a question of a how much money you can reasonably expect to pay.
 

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