Hindmost
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2006
- Messages
- 3,307
Moving right along, it might be helpful to attempt to summarise the points so far I think we can agree on:
Existing nuclear fission is cheaper per unit energy than existing renewables, but produces waste which is dangerous in the long term.
Existing nuclear fission fuel supplies are known to be good for fifty years, perhaps a little more. Past that point efficiency decreases and before too long fission will not be advantageous compared to renewables. There are unproven proposals to get more uranium from other sources, but nothing that has yet been demonstrated to be cost-effective.
Unless there does turn out to be another source of fission fuel which is economically viable, building more fission plants will just mean we hit the wall sooner.
I think we've got consensus on those points, but I could be wrong.
So the solution to the future shortage of fission fuel is to find new sources of uranium like getting it out of seawater (if it works, great), or reprocessing the existing leftovers. However this too is more expensive than mining and refining uranium ore.
Question One: How do the numbers stack up comparing reprocessing nuclear leftovers to building more of the existing renewables? I take it as given that any cost breaks you assume for reprocessing (scale, technological advances and so on) apply also to the renewables.
Next point, conventional breeder reactors have inherent safety risks and proliferation risks. It's been stated that other alternative reactor models can be built so that they do not produce material which is ideal for weapons, can use existing leftovers and/or produce more fuel fission reactors can use.
Question Two: Ideally we'd have a reactor that used existing leftovers, was proven cost-efficient compared to renewables without convenient assumptions, and could not be used as a stepping stone to nuclear weapons by a state that was so inclined. Is there any such beast?
If the answer to those questions is "Yes, reprocessing waste is proven to be cheaper than building solar panels (or whatever)" and "Yes, there's an ideal reactor model that solves all our problems at once" then the case for nuclear power would be close to ironclad.
On the other hand if there is no reason to believe that nuclear is going to be any cheaper than renewable in fifty years time however you work it, and that nuclear is always going to be a proliferation risk if deployed outside the existing nuclear weapons club, then the long-term solution to the world's power needs has to be based on wind, solar or something of the sort with nuclear only being used in the niches where renewables cannot be made to work cost-effectively.
I don't agree with everything here. Specifically about the shortage of uranium. MIT assumed 1500 reactors for their analysis.
http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/
For nuclear to be viable long term...past the 50-60 years on the once through fuel system, a series of nuclear plants and reprocessing plants would need to be built. Essentially, in a group of 4-5 reactors, there would need to be one breeder and enough reprocessing capacity to fuel the other 3-4 plants with the fuel bred. This has not been done anywhere--as a result, the engineering costs would be large...but...the technology exists as it has been done previously.
question one: I don't think there is enough evidence to compare renewables with reprocessing fuel. There are very few reprocessing plants and they are not operating on a big enough scale to compare with renewables.
Conventional breeder reactors do not have inherent safety risks. I have shown evidence to that in past posts. In fact EBRII proved the fuel can be made inherently safe in a loss of coolant accident...which is a worst case senario.
As far as proliferation, I certainly don't expect countries outside the existing nuclear powers to be building breeder reactors. The major concern would be theft in place where the fuel is not secure--possibly in Russia. But then the roque elements would need one heck of a lab to reprocess that fuel and it wouldn't be truly weapons grade...it would be reactor grade...see the following:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/pu-isotope.htm
If a country was going to attempt to construct a bomb, the course of action would be to build a production reactor--which is very much easier than reprocessing spent fuel. India did this and it appears as if pakistan is doing so as well, however, their initial weapons were made by enriching uranium. Iran's program is probably building a production reactor now.
question two: Integral fast reactors can do this: they can burn up the vast majority of the transuranic waste--especially the Plutonium. It is not new technology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_Fast_Reactor
Finally, I don't think this can be an one or the other situation. We will need both renewable and nuclear power...and anything else we can use to generate electricity and heat. Even Bazil with their ethanol program is going to come up against some hard issues in the future with exhaustion of the land along with growing population...etc.
glenn
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