North Korean purges continue. Klling latest with mortar execution.

[John Mekki]

For Gawd's sake!

This tactic of yours is called "whataboutery". If someone says, "North Korea has locked up tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people in its gulags", your response is, "whatabout the US and Guantanamo Bay". Presumably if someone says, "Guantanamo Bay is an affront to human rights" you would say, "whatabout North Korea!"

No?

No, I thought not. You are selective about how you want to change the subject. Anyway, if you want to talk about all those things that you can't not talk about then why not start a thread on those things and stop cluttering up someone else's thread on North Korea with your "whataboutery".

Do not get too angry, AngrySoba.
Just trying to put things a little bit in perspective.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I have never said that everything is either a lie or not a lie.
You are babbling about things that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

You have already been given plenty examples of where Ahmadinejad has said that he does not want Israel in the Middle East, and how he would like the Country removed.

The problem now is your refusal to accept anything directly stated out of Ahmadinejad's mouth.


Since there really isn't anything more to say on this side topic besides that you don't want to accept information that is contradictory to your world view despite the evidence provided. I suggest you move any further discussion to an appropriate thread where you can see more statements and evidence that is contradictory to your world view that you can ignore.

First and foremost, I would suggest this thread:

General Israel/Palestine discussion thread
Ahmadinejad's statements on his desire to destroy Israel have been brought up a number of times.


Which also is a major topic in this thread:
General Holocaust denial discussion thread


And make sure not to miss this thread as well:
Ahmadinejad says West 'stealing Iran's rain'

 

[HoverBoarder]

Rare to see something that exceeds "Whippings will continue until attitudes improve."

Before 9/11, when the auto companies were doing well, they had profit-sharing agreements with employees to share a fixed percent. One year, I forget which, Ford had phenmenal profits. This would lead to record profit sharing checks. So the ass in charge reduced it with three arguments of sophistry, one of which was basically employee attitude needed improvement.

It's really not that rare for N. Korea. It's been a standard practice for decades. The only thing that makes this any different is the alledged method of execution. If he was shot, it wouldn't be interesting enough to report, on top of the thousands of others that would have similar stories in N. Korea.

I don't know if I really would compare a pattern of mass executions and large scale death camp slave labor to not getting a bonus because of general moral though.

Those people in the Gulags are literally worked to death, and those too close to death who can't work as much are starved to death. Anyone suspected of dissenting are shot. Moral in that case is not really an issue.

Although I guess I could see how not being able to get the new 55" plasma tv vs. the 47" because someone didn't get their bonus is pretty similar.

 

[Mycroft]

This IS entirely true.
The Iranian president never used such words and this point has been clarified beyond doubt and it has been aknowledged by all the people involved.
Therefore, you said a lie.
I have never heard that the “mistranslation” was originated by Iranian media.
In any case, once the issue had been clarified (and it has been clarified already ages ago), all media should have corrected the “error”.
Strange enough, they keep repeating the “incorrect translation” over and over.
And you also keep repeating the “mistranslation”

Virtually everyone who disagrees with the "wiped off the map" translation traces their disagreement to one guy, Juan Cole. He's certainly an educated person, but it really boils down to his opinion versus everyone else who speaks Farsi.

Further, claiming that "must vanish from the pages of time" is somehow less threatening and ominous than "wiped off the map" is a bizarre claim to make. Either way it's a display of Iranian hostility towards Israel. The distinction made is one without a difference.

 

[Mycroft]

So, knowing it was an incorrect translation, and using it anyway, what would you call that?

He "knows" the translation is incorrect...why? Because an opinion article says so?

Last I heard the New York Times stands behind the translation they published.

 

[John Mekki]

You have already been given plenty examples of where Ahmadinejad has said that he does not want Israel in the Middle East, and how he would like the Country removed.

The problem now is your refusal to accept anything directly stated out of Ahmadinejad's mouth.


Since there really isn't anything more to say on this side topic besides that you don't want to accept information that is contradictory to your world view despite the evidence provided. I suggest you move any further discussion to an appropriate thread where you can see more statements and evidence that is contradictory to your world view that you can ignore.

First and foremost, I would suggest this thread:

General Israel/Palestine discussion thread
Ahmadinejad's statements on his desire to destroy Israel have been brought up a number of times.


Which also is a major topic in this thread:
General Holocaust denial discussion thread


And make sure not to miss this thread as well:
Ahmadinejad says West 'stealing Iran's rain'

As said, you are babbling about things that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

1) Holocaust denial is not a crime, well.., it should not be a crime.
Why is (or should) Holocaust denial be a crime and not be a crime denying the crimes committed by Japanese troops in China during WWII of the crimes committed by US troops in Vietnam?
As said, try to think with your own head.
Not all the times, sometimes would also be OK.

2) Is claiming that someone or somebody is stealing your rain a crime?
I think it is just a silly statement.
Not that other politicians do not make silly statements.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/cs/quotethis/a/quaylequotes.htm

3) The Israel/Palestinian thread is also quite long (too long to read).
I know that Ahmadinejad has made some threatening statements against Israel, my point is that the US leadership also made other threatening statements against Iran, and even worse than them.
So why condeming the former while condoning the latter?

[..] Either way it's a display of Iranian hostility towards Israel. [..]

While the statement by former President Bush that he refuses to rule out a nuclear strike on Iran and the support given to Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war shows the deep affection that the US have over Iran and the Iranian people.
As repeated many many times, people get dumbed by their own governments and there is little to do about it..

And now I could like to close this parenthesis and go back to discuss about North Korea.

The only thing that makes this any different is the alledged method of execution. If he was shot, it wouldn't be interesting enough to report, on top of the thousands of others that would have similar stories in N. Korea.

Sad but true.
Looks like sometimes the media use the gruesome aspect of some news to get attention while we all forget that there are many other victims silently suffering and dying

 

[angrysoba]

Virtually everyone who disagrees with the "wiped off the map" translation traces their disagreement to one guy, Juan Cole. He's certainly an educated person, but it really boils down to his opinion versus everyone else who speaks Farsi.

This is actually untrue. Who do you know who speaks Farsi that agrees with the "wiped from the map" translation?

My source is not Juan Cole but an Iranian Farsi speaker.

Further, claiming that "must vanish from the pages of time" is somehow less threatening and ominous than "wiped off the map" is a bizarre claim to make. Either way it's a display of Iranian hostility towards Israel. The distinction made is one without a difference.

I agree that the quote evidently shows hostility to Israel. Even more reason to not get the quote wrong as it ends up with people wrangling over trivial matters.

He "knows" the translation is incorrect...why? Because an opinion article says so?

No. I mentioned earlier in the thread what my source was.

Last I heard the New York Times stands behind the translation they published.

So what?

 

[A'isha]

If anyone wants to look it up themselves or check it with a Parsi speaker, the quote from Khomeini was "فرزندان معنوی اسرائیل را از صحنه روزگار محو خواهند كرد", farzandan ma'naviya asrayyal ra az sahneh roozegar maho khwahend kard.

The particular phrase in question is "صحنه روزگار", sahneh roozegar.

 

[angrysoba]

If anyone wants to look it up themselves or check it with a Parsi speaker, the quote from Khomeini was "فرزندان معنوی اسرائیل را از صحنه روزگار محو خواهند كرد", farzandan ma'naviya asrayyal ra az sahneh roozegar maho khwahend kard.

The particular phrase in question is "صحنه روزگار", sahneh roozegar.

To be honest, it doesn't really matter that much. If the Iranian regime wants to continue to use "wiped from the map" as its translation then why argue with them?

 

[John Mekki]

[..] If the Iranian regime wants to continue to use "wiped from the map" as its translation then why argue with them?

Just to point out that the Iranian "regime" is.. err.. not a regime.
Well, it depends what you consider as "regime".
In Iran there are elections with a fairly high turnout, and while there have been problems during last elections, still many western-based organizations believe that most of the voters did actually back Ahmadinejad.
So, for example, since US elections have a lower turnout than Iranian elections, and since there are quite a few allegations that some voters are forced out of voting, shall we also call the US Government as "regime"?
What about Italy, where the former Prime Minister privately owned three TV channels and directly controlled the other three public channels.
Shall we also talk about the Italian Government as the "Italian regime"?
If not, why not?
It is the usual game of blaming the others of the same problems that you have in your backyard.

Just to point out.

Since I would not like to continue this off-topic here, if anybody is intended to discuss this off-topic I would suggest to have a spearate thread for this.

 

[HoverBoarder]

As said, you are babbling about things that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Ok, you are the one bringing these topics up, and then change the subject to something different once you get called on a problem with your original argument, but alright I guess, down the rabbit hole we go..

1) Holocaust denial is not a crime, well.., it should not be a crime.
Why is (or should) Holocaust denial be a crime and not be a crime denying the crimes committed by Japanese troops in China during WWII of the crimes committed by US troops in Vietnam?
As said, try to think with your own head.
Not all the times, sometimes would also be OK.

In other words, should the blatant and thinly veiled racism under the guise of "Holocaust denial" be a criminal act.

In most countries the answer is no, but in France it is. In the US, you are allowed to be as racist as you want as long as your actions don't violate the anti-discrimination laws.

I have been to the Auschwitz museum, and the working conditions in Birkenau bore a lot of similarities to the North Korean "Camp 22 and 14."

Holocaust Now: Looking Down Into Hell at Camp 22

It is not for a lack of evidence to the contrary that causes there to be holocaust denyers, it is solely due to a desire to focus racist rage without the more socially inconvenient aspect of directly identifying with racist groups.

It's the same reason there is a 'Birther' movement in the US. There is more than enough evidence to invalidate the groups claims, but it allows it's members to carry out racist goals without having to directly call themselves as such.

None of which should be illegal in my mind, they should just be socially condemned for being the dishonest racists that they are.

As for the US role in Vietnam, that is pretty well accepted, and I don't know of anyone who denies the crimes of the Japanese in China beside a few ultra Nationalist in Japan, but neither of those cases are related to holocaust denial. Like many of the other similar tactics that have been used here, this is just another deflection from addressing the argument at hand, in this case holocaust deniers.

2) Is claiming that someone or somebody is stealing your rain a crime?
I think it is just a silly statement.
Not that other politicians do not make silly statements.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/cs/quotethis/a/quaylequotes.htm

Spouting crazed conspiracy theories is definitely not a crime, but it is evidence of mental instability. Along with repeated publically stated desires to remove the existence of a nearby country, massive human rights abuses and attacks on his own people, support for groups in Lebanon that carry out bombings and assassinations, and support for civilian mass murdering campaigns in Syria, it creates a pattern of an instable and reckless man who is widely suspected of actively working towards developing weapons capable of mass genocide.

Which is more than a little 'silly.'

3) The Israel/Palestinian thread is also quite long (too long to read).
I know that Ahmadinejad has made some threatening statements against Israel, my point is that the US leadership also made other threatening statements against Iran, and even worse than them.
So why condeming the former while condoning the latter?

I never said that I didn't condemn threatening statements towards Iran.

More importantly, why are using the latter as an excuse to ignore the former?

While the statement by former President Bush that he refuses to rule out a nuclear strike on Iran and the support given to Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war shows the deep affection that the US have over Iran and the Iranian people.
As repeated many many times, people get dumbed by their own governments and there is little to do about it..

The former president Bush? You do know that Obama is president now? and hopefully he will be next year as well.

The threats Iran has made should be taken seriously. Period. There should be no excuse for ignoring their pro-genocidal comments, and their support for mass killings in their region.

Excuses from taking their threats and actions seriously are just that, excuses.

And now I could like to close this parenthesis and go back to discuss about North Korea.

Great... although I have my doubts...

Sad but true.
Looks like sometimes the media use the gruesome aspect of some news to get attention while we all forget that there are many other victims silently suffering and dying

It's not just the media. They would not be producing the news that is currently being produced if it didn't sell.

'News' itself is not a very lucrative enterprise, and the 'news' that people watch is rarely a detailed analysis of what is going on in our world. A US study from 2000 tracked the news story choices of 9,209 randomly-selected users on 13 news sites. It found that 26% of the stories were about sports, 13.4% were about business and the economy, 10.9% were arts and entertainment, 10.7% were features, 10.2% was US National, 7% Technology, 6.1% was world news, 5.4% was politics, and the rest was Health, interactive, weather, and other.

A lot of the news that people do look at is confirmation bias. In other words seeking out confirmation that will tell them that what they believe is correct, so they don't have to question their own beliefs, or cause them to question the bias that we all hold.

We live our lives with structure and routine, and much of our news tells us information about stories that could alter that routine, and ways that we can adapt our routine to deal with new events. The weather, the rise and fall of the stock market, terrorist attacks, local crime, and unusual stories that break the norm.

A child born into slavery in North Korea will likely never be the focus of any news story. They will live and die in hard labor, obscurity, and pass on unknown to the vast majority of the world. The only country who can really do the most about it, China, is unlikely to do anything that would not be beneficial to them, and they are highly unlikely to offer assistance to the hundreds of thousands of forced labor slaves held by their ally to the South.

Like many people around the world, we live in a system of unaccountability where guarantees of human rights under the UN charter are given mainly only to those in privileged countries.


Most people choose to ignore the depressing and hard stories of the harsh world we live in. Something that can only be partly blamed on the news organizations that ignore that type of reporting. Through the consumerism of choice, people have chosen not to focus, and many times not even to address that type of information.

The old editor of the LA Times once said at a speech that I was at that they "print what sells." Are the news organizations really to blame that what sells as news is not the in-depth reporting of the full grim reality of the world we live in?

 

[HoverBoarder]

To be honest, it doesn't really matter that much. If the Iranian regime wants to continue to use "wiped from the map" as its translation then why argue with them?

Either way you translate it or the other similar statements, it is evidence of Iranian threats towards the existence of Israel.

The only reason it is an issue is because people use it as an excuse to ignore the whole issue altogether. Like this:

Media have the habit of inflating bad news about foreign potentially enemy countries while giving a blind eye to news about bad things regarding their own.
“WMD in Iraq” and “Israel must be wiped off the map” are just two examples of lies from the Western media.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Which brings us back to the heart of the reason why there are executions and mass killings in North Korea in the first place:

Besides for the most part Cuba, mass killings are just part of what is required for a communist country to function.

Mass killings (except for the most part Cuba) are just one of the things required for Communist countries to function. Just like regulations are needed for capitalist countries to function.

 

[A'isha]

To be honest, it doesn't really matter that much. If the Iranian regime wants to continue to use "wiped from the map" as its translation then why argue with them?

Oh, I completely agree!

But you know how I get about these things. I squee over scholarly minutiae, even the pointless ones.

 

[angrysoba]

In Iran there are elections with a fairly high turnout.

In North Korea there are elections with a very high turnout.

Would that make North Korea the most democratic?

 

[John Mekki]

Ok, you are the one bringing these topics up, and then change the subject to something different once you get called on a problem with your original argument, but alright I guess, down the rabbit hole we go..

False.
I never talked about Mr. A.` s comment about rain

In other words, should the blatant and thinly veiled racism under the guise of "Holocaust denial" be a criminal act.

In most countries the answer is no, but in France it is.

And in Germany as well, I think

None of which should be illegal in my mind, they should just be socially condemned for being the dishonest racists that they are.

Yes, but we are not talking about your personal opinion if Holocaust denial should be illegal or not, as your opinion is not exactly what worries world leaders.
We are discussing why and if Ahmadinejad comments on the Holocaust should be considered liable to be called "crimes" or short of that.
This is what you brought up, remember

As for the US role in Vietnam, that is pretty well accepted,

What is "pretty well accepted"?
That the US started a criminal war in Vietnam and that commit war crimes there?
Are you sure this opinion is common in the US?

and I don't know of anyone who denies the crimes of the Japanese in China beside a few ultra Nationalist in Japan,

You obviously have never been in Japan and know nothing about Japanese people

but neither of those cases are related to holocaust denial. Like many of the other similar tactics that have been used here, this is just another deflection from addressing the argument at hand, in this case holocaust deniers.

You did not understand at all the point I was making

Spouting crazed conspiracy theories is definitely not a crime, but it is evidence of mental instability.

While not ruling out a nuclear strike on Iran is evidence of mental stability.
Take off your pink glasses

Along with repeated publically stated desires to remove the existence of a nearby country, massive human rights abuses and attacks on his own people, support for groups in Lebanon that carry out bombings and assassinations, and support for civilian mass murdering campaigns in Syria, it creates a pattern of an instable and reckless man who is widely suspected of actively working towards developing weapons capable of mass genocide.

Yawn..

I do not know what you are talking about with “massive human right abuses”, but..
And the comment on Israel were intended torwards a regime change, not an attack to Israeli people, AFAIK

Shall we talk about the US?
Overthrowing the Iranian democratically elected government in 1953, without apologizing to them so far.
Support of Saddam Hussein when he was attacking Iran with chemical weapons.
Assassination of Iranian scientists.
Imposing sanctions that deprive Iranian patients of their needed medicines.
Support of Israel for their human rights abuses on the Palestinians.
Stubborn refusal of accepting the two-state solution that would end the Israeli-Palestinians stand-off
Support for dictatorships in the region (Mubarak, Saudia Arabia, etc.)

Shall I continue?

As said, take off your pink glasses

I never said that I didn't condemn threatening statements towards Iran.

But, again, your opinion on this counts nothing.
We are discussing about why Iranians behave in a certain way, your opinion about what is right or not right in principle is not heard by any Government.

More importantly, why are using the latter as an excuse to ignore the former?

I have repeatedly stated that I think the Iranians are behaving stupid in many ways, but it is them who have been threatened so far

The former president Bush? You do know that Obama is president now? and hopefully he will be next year as well.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand?

The threats Iran has made should be taken seriously. Period. There should be no excuse for ignoring their pro-genocidal comments, and their support for mass killings in their region.

I agree with that.
But, if you for once would take off your pink glasses, you would understand the simple truth that our Governments are making exactly the same kind of comments and even worse than that

One day maybe you will get it

Great... although I have my doubts...

It's not just the media. They would not be producing the news that is currently being produced if it didn't sell.

I agree.
We are all guilty of many of the crimes that are going on in the world, even if we ignore them, simply for not getting informed enough

News' itself is not a very lucrative enterprise, and the 'news' that people watch is rarely a detailed analysis of what is going on in our world. A US study from 2000 tracked the news story choices of 9,209 randomly-selected users on 13 news sites. It found that 26% of the stories were about sports, 13.4% were about business and the economy, 10.9% were arts and entertainment, 10.7% were features, 10.2% was US National, 7% Technology, 6.1% was world news, 5.4% was politics, and the rest was Health, interactive, weather, and other.

A lot of the news that people do look at is confirmation bias. In other words seeking out confirmation that will tell them that what they believe is correct, so they don't have to question their own beliefs, or cause them to question the bias that we all hold.
[..]

This is why we should try to read news with open eyes.

A child born into slavery in North Korea will likely never be the focus of any news story. They will live and die in hard labor, obscurity, and pass on unknown to the vast majority of the world. The only country who can really do the most about it, China, is unlikely to do anything that would not be beneficial to them, and they are highly unlikely to offer assistance to the hundreds of thousands of forced labor slaves held by their ally to the South.

Yes.
But, again, you fail to see the responsibility that the West has in this.

Like many people around the world, we live in a system of unaccountability where guarantees of human rights under the UN charter are given mainly only to those in privileged countries.

Yes, but it is sometimes the Government of the "previleged countries" that keep human rights of other countries in a poor state

The old editor of the LA Times once said at a speech that I was at that they "print what sells." Are the news organizations really to blame that what sells as news is not the in-depth reporting of the full grim reality of the world we live in?

I agree on this.
At the end, the responsibility is on all of us.

 

[John Mekki]

In North Korea there are elections with a very high turnout.

Would that make North Korea the most democratic?

No, if you have evidence that people get forced to go to vote.

 

[John Mekki]

Which brings us back to the heart of the reason why there are executions and mass killings in North Korea in the first place:

Yes.
Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, the fascist South American dictaroships backed by the US were "communist countries".
Pink glasses again and again

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Mass killings (except for the most part Cuba) are just one of the things required for Communist countries to function. Just like regulations are needed for capitalist countries to function.

Many revolutions, (nominally?) communist and otherwise, have a period of mass killing.

 

[angrysoba]

No, if you have evidence that people get forced to go to vote.

Well Australia has such coercion. What evidence do you have that people in North Korea are forced to vote? If none then we can say that North Korea is more democratic than Australia. In fact, it must be because it is right there in the name: Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Or you could just use your common bloody sense.

The reason for Iran being called a regime is because of the political structure of the Islamic Republic which rigs elections before they begin by having a Guardian Council which forbids candidates not approved by ruling mullahs. Furthermore, you can't speak out against the regime in public if you don't want to be reported by the authorities. My Iranian friend who translated the Khomeini/Ahmadinejad phrase can give you chapter and verse on the various ways in what you are forbidden from saying.