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North Korean purges continue. Klling latest with mortar execution.

How does this kind of info get out of NK? Is more than one original source reporting this? Or any other kind of corroboration?

I believe the famine camps and the torture jails, for sure.

But I am skeptical about some of the crazy attributed to NK.

In semi-related news, remember that story about KJI getting 18 holes in one the first time he played golf? I could only find a single English language source for that- some BBC reporter recounting what he'd read (IIRC). Is there any other corroboration that this story appeared in the NK media?
 
How does this kind of info get out of NK? Is more than one original source reporting this? Or any other kind of corroboration?

I believe the famine camps and the torture jails, for sure.

But I am skeptical about some of the crazy attributed to NK.
[..]

I agree.
Media have the habit of inflating bad news about foreign potentially enemy countries while giving a blind eye to news about bad things regarding their own.
“WMD in Iraq” and “Israel must be wiped off the map” are just two examples of lies from the Western media, if you want to hear lies about Iranian and Japanese media, just just open Press TV site or look at the one-sided version of the island row with China in Japanese news....

Crazy claims about NK can not be independently verified, so I do not give much trust to such strange non-sensical "news".
Not that I disagree with the sad truth of the state of NK regime.
 
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I agree.
Media have the habit of inflating bad news about foreign potentially enemy countries while giving a blind eye to news about bad things regarding their own.
“WMD in Iraq” and “Israel must be wiped off the map” are just two examples of lies from the Western media, if you want to hear lies about Iranian and Japanese media, just just open Press TV site or look at the one-sided version of the island row with China in Japanese news....

Crazy claims about NK can not be independently verified, so I do not give much trust to such strange non-sensical "news".
Not that I disagree with the sad truth of the state of NK regime.

I agree with you too, though I don't think anyone's consciously 'lying'.

A while ago I started a thread about whether the Western / US media vilified Western / US enemies the same way the media in 'enemy' countries vilified the US. Lots of posts agreed that yes, the US media probably did, but there weren't really many contemporary examples pointed out (except by the 'usual suspects'). I thought that was odd.
 
I agree with you too, though I don't think anyone's consciously 'lying'.

A while ago I started a thread about whether the Western / US media vilified Western / US enemies the same way the media in 'enemy' countries vilified the US. Lots of posts agreed that yes, the US media probably did, but there weren't really many contemporary examples pointed out (except by the 'usual suspects'). I thought that was odd.

I agree with you, most of the people may may not be conciously lying about the perceived “enemy”, etc.
They just show that country in the worst light possible and fail to use the same equanimity and parameters for the “other”.
The most blatant example is Iran, the US accuses Iran to have a nuclear weapon program since 20 years ago, when it is the US the only country who used nukes against civilians and has threatened Iran in every immaginable way.
Iran does not even have the missile capability to reach the US.
Any person with 1% of common sense would understand this, but most people in the West perceive Iran, not the US, as the terrorist country.
Of course, this ipocrisy is used by Iran to justify their aggressive plans against Israel and the refusal to recognize Israel as a country, which is unjustifiable and wrong by the Iranians as well, no matter what.
Here with NK we may see a similar pattern, Western media have an easy way to tell everything they want about NK since it is almost impossible to independently verfy what they say.
Of course, we all know what unfortunately happens in NK, even without having to rely on news of people executed by mortars.
 
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How does this kind of info get out of NK? Is more than one original source reporting this? Or any other kind of corroboration?

I believe the famine camps and the torture jails, for sure.

But I am skeptical about some of the crazy attributed to NK.

Based on what?

The labor camps, the large numbers of executions you would accept, but isn't that enough evidence right there of being out what many would term rational control?

The North Korean system is severely broken. The large number of people killed through famine is direct evidence of that. The labor camps are a way of restraining rebellion, but they are also a way of maintaining large scale brutal slave labor.

It's not so much crazy in the mental sense, but they are required to engage in what many would deem to be 'crazy' acts in order for the N. Korean regime just to survive.
 
I agree with you, most of the people may may not be conciously lying about the perceived “enemy”, etc.
They just show that country in the worst light possible and fail to use the same equanimity and parameters for the “other”.
The most blatant example is Iran, the US accuses Iran to have a nuclear weapon program since 20 years ago, when it is the US the only country who used nukes against civilians and has threatened Iran in every immaginable way.
Iran does not even have the missile capability to reach the US.
Any person with 1% of common sense would understand this, but most people in the West perceive Iran, not the US, as the terrorist country.
Of course, this ipocrisy is used by Iran to justify their aggressive plans against Israel and the refusal to recognize Israel as a country, which is unjustifiable and wrong by the Iranians as well, no matter what.
Here with NK we may see a similar pattern, Western media have an easy way to tell everything they want about NK since it is almost impossible to independently verfy what they say.
Of course, we all know what unfortunately happens in NK, even without having to rely on news of people executed by mortars.

Here's the difference. The US has a lot of nukes, but it is extremely unlikely that we would give them to anyone to use.

The arsenal of nukes the US holds on to, currently are largely a relic of the cold war, and primarily serve as a deterrent for other nations who also have arsenals of world destroyer weapons to not use them.

Iran on the other hand does have a lot of friends and groups they support who include the goal of killing millions of people as their primary missions. In addition, the Iranian government itself regularly states that carrying out mass genocide would be a great thing to do that they would really like to be able follow through on sometime.

Mixing nukes with a country that regularly publically fantasizes about wiping other countries off the map is a very bad idea.


The instability of the N. Korean regime which every so often bombs South Koreans and kills massive numbers of their own citizens is also a very problematic mixture for nuclear weapons.

In comparison, very few people are worried that France will ever launch off a nuclear weapon. They have a strong government, and little reason to use their nukes.

N. Korea on the other hand survives through fear, cult propaganda, the food aid of outside countries, and mass torture, slave labor, and mass executions. All of those factors create a very unstable country whose full reliance on outside countries for their survival requires that they continually take drastic steps to maintain power.

China, the US, and South Korea will not let N. Korea become a fully failed state, for the very reason that the increased instability from that situation would be a danger to everyone in the region. Something that no one has to worry about with a country like France.



Whether the general was actually killed by a mortar is unverifiable, but his reported killing does follow a long pattern of high level executions since Jong Un took power. A pattern that makes it a lot less likely that there would be any need for Western media to fabricate the story. Unusual stories take more review of their authenticity, but the only thing unusual about this story was the way that the general was killed, not why, or whether he it would be likely that he could have been killed. Largely because of that fact, most opposition to the story is more related to antipathy toward the West in general rather than serious analysis.
 
What a bunch of bull..
I will reply only on this one, promised, then stop as we are going off-topic and I do not want to get caught off-topic again.
So, my reply and then stop.
If you wish to continue on this topic, please open another thread.

Here's the difference. The US has a lot of nukes, but it is extremely unlikely that we would give them to anyone to use.

"We” what?
Are you the president of the US?
If not, dear, you count nothing on this and you can not give any nuke to any one.
Sorry for that.
As for the Government of the US giving nukes to anyone, this is not what I was talking about since the US Government can give orders to the US military to use such nukes

The arsenal of nukes the US holds on to, currently are largely a relic of the cold war, and primarily serve as a deterrent for other nations who also have arsenals of world destroyer weapons to not use them.

BS again.
The NPT requires countries with nukes to get rid of them, and Russia and the US, India, China are not.
At least, India and China adopt the minimum deterrent policy, Russia and the US do not.
As for the “deterrent” argument, you fail to realize that it is reflexive.

Iran on the other hand does have a lot of friends and groups they support who include the goal of killing millions of people as their primary missions. In addition, the Iranian government itself regularly states that carrying out mass genocide would be a great thing to do that they would really like to be able follow through on sometime.

This is crap propaganda that only people brainwashed by Fox News may believe.
Not worth an answer.

Mixing nukes with a country that regularly publically fantasizes about wiping other countries off the map is a very bad idea.

See above.
"Wipe off the map" was a lie made up by Western media. Go get informed.

Even kids know this by now.

The instability of the N. Korean regime which every so often bombs South Koreans and kills massive numbers of their own citizens is also a very problematic mixture for nuclear weapons.

Certainly true.
Considering the fact that most NK leaders, should the regime fall tomorrow, would probably be sent to The Hague for war crimes and imprisoned for the rest of their lives, I fail to see how threatening the NK regime may make them willing to do some concession and not instead push them even further into developing nukes.

In comparison, very few people are worried that France will ever launch off a nuclear weapon. They have a strong government, and little reason to use their nukes.

Sure.
What about the US with Iran?
Did the US rule out using nukes against Iran?
I remember the good old “all the options are on the map”
Why then Iran should trust the US if the US is giving no guarantee to Iran?

N. Korea on the other hand survives through fear, cult propaganda, the food aid of outside countries, and mass torture, slave labor, and mass executions. All of those factors create a very unstable country whose full reliance on outside countries for their survival requires that they continually take drastic steps to maintain power.

Agreed.
And how threatening North Korea of military action would move NK leaders to seek peace and not instead do everything they can to stick to power ?

China, the US, and South Korea will not let N. Korea become a fully failed state, for the very reason that the increased instability from that situation would be a danger to everyone in the region. Something that no one has to worry about with a country like France.

Last time I checked, it was China one of the main supporters of NK, and one of the reasons discussed was the China does not want an US proxy near their borders (an unified Korea).
Not that this justifies China` s behaviour

Whether the general was actually killed by a mortar is unverifiable, but his reported killing does follow a long pattern of high level executions since Jong Un took power. A pattern that makes it a lot less likely that there would be any need for Western media to fabricate the story. Unusual stories take more review of their authenticity, but the only thing unusual about this story was the way that the general was killed, not why, or whether he it would be likely that he could have been killed. Largely because of that fact, most opposition to the story is more related to antipathy toward the West in general rather than serious analysis.

All media, including Western ones, have the tendency to stretch, fabricate, spin and twist news according to their needs.
 
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What a bunch of bull..
I will reply only on this one, promised, then stop as we are going off-topic and I do not want to get caught off-topic again.
So, my reply and then stop.
If you wish to continue on this topic, please open another thread.

Sure, let me just correct you on a few mistkes...

"We” what?
Are you the president of the US?
If not, dear, you count nothing on this and you can not give any nuke to any one.
Sorry for that.
As for the Government of the US giving nukes to anyone, this is not what I was talking about since the US Government can give orders to the US military to use such nukes
I brought up "we," because I live in the country. As for giving up nukes to other people, you brought up Iran. That is one of the main issues with their refusal to allow monitors in to ensure that they are not developing nuclear weapons.

BS again.
The NPT requires countries with nukes to get rid of them, and Russia and the US, India, China are not.
At least, India and China adopt the minimum deterrent policy, Russia and the US do not.
As for the “deterrent” argument, you fail to realize that it is reflexive.
Beyond the NPT part, which I agree with, that's your opinion. One that I would consider wrong, but your free to hold it nonetheless.

This is crap propaganda that only people brainwashed by Fox News may believe.
Not worth an answer.

LOL, seriously?!? Seriously?!?

Have you EVER read anything they actually say?


See above.
"Wipe off the map" was a lie made up by Western media. Go get informed.

Even kids know this by now.

Yeah, kids who don't know how to read or watch a video.

Adults who can have no excuse besides really not wanting to know that type of information.


Certainly true.
Considering the fact that most NK leaders, should the regime fall tomorrow, would probably be sent to The Hague for war crimes and imprisoned for the rest of their lives, I fail to see how threatening the NK regime may make them willing to do some concession and not instead push them even further into developing nukes.
It is almost somewhat more worrying that the chaos that could result in a rapid destabilization of the government could not be managed by China or other sorrounding countries.

Sure.
What about the US with Iran?
Did the US rule out using nukes against Iran?
I remember the good old “all the options are on the map”
Why then Iran should trust the US if the US is giving no guarantee to Iran?
The US does not survive through fear, cult propaganda, the food aid of outside countries, and mass torture, slave labor, and mass executions.

The US has no need to nuke Iran.

Agreed.
And how threatening North Korea of military action would move NK leaders to seek peace and not instead do everything they can to stick to power ?
I don't know if you have heard of the "six Nation talks," but the US has been trying to get N. Korea to agree to participate in peaceful talks for as long as I can remember.


Last time I checked, it was China one of the main supporters of NK, and one of the reasons discussed was the China does not want an US proxy near their borders (an unified Korea).
Not that this justifies China` s behaviour
You are definitely right, but China is not entirely happy about that. The US and the UN have also given a significant amount of food aid to N. Korea.

China definitely would not want US bases near their border, but a unified Korea would be create an enormous economic boom for China. If US bases stayed in South Korea, and a transistion was made in a safe and orderly fashion, I don't think that China would be too opposed to the idea.


All media, including Western ones, have the tendency to stretch, fabricate, spin and twist news according to their needs.
Oh yeah, that is definitely correct, but so do readers.

It's easy to focus on external bias, internal is much harder.
 
OK, I will reply once again, hoping that my off-topic will go unnoticed.

I brought up "we," because I live in the country.

Which does not matter anything.
Any person with a little bit of power in Israel would matter much more than you in decision about the US military than you, who count zero.

Beyond the NPT part, which I agree with, that's your opinion. One that I would consider wrong, but your free to hold it nonetheless.

I think I have quoted facts and logic, anyways..

LOL, seriously?!? Seriously?!?
Have you EVER read anything they actually say?

Yawn..
How it is hard to debunk a mind educated by the US media.
From the terrorist newsite “The Guardian” belonging to the radical Islamic country called United Kingdom
“Experts confirm that Iran's president did not call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'. Reports that he did serve to strengthen western hawks.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/14/post155

Stop quoting hawkish pro-Israeli sites, please, you are making fun of yourself..

Yeah, kids who don't know how to read or watch a video.
Adults who can have no excuse besides really not wanting to know that type of information.

See above.
Repeating a lie 1000 times does not make it true

The US does not survive through fear, cult propaganda, the food aid of outside countries, and mass torture, slave labor, and mass executions.

But it has exported during the years mass torture, mass executions in many countries in South America, Iraq, Africa, Rumenia, Vietnam among others

The US has no need to nuke Iran.

And Iran has no need to nuke the US

I don't know if you have heard of the "six Nation talks," but the US has been trying to get N. Korea to agree to participate in peaceful talks for as long as I can remember.

Sure.
“Peaceful”

You are definitely right, but China is not entirely happy about that. The US and the UN have also given a significant amount of food aid to N. Korea.

So what?

China definitely would not want US bases near their border, but a unified Korea would be create an enormous economic boom for China. If US bases stayed in South Korea, and a transistion was made in a safe and orderly fashion, I don't think that China would be too opposed to the idea.

Sorry to say, but your opinion on China` s leadership desires is completely irrelevant to the actual foreign policy of China.


It's easy to focus on external bias, internal is much harder.

This is what I am trying to tell you :)
 
Based on what?

The labor camps, the large numbers of executions you would accept, but isn't that enough evidence right there of being out what many would term rational control?

I wouldn't call that 'crazy', because...

The labor camps are a way of restraining rebellion, but they are also a way of maintaining large scale brutal slave labor.

...they have a specific objective they achieve with the labour camps (suppression of dissent, slave labour). I think it's an egregious breach of human rights, but I would not necessarily call it 'crazy'.

Using a mortar to execute someone though? That's like something a James Bond villain would do. I dunno. I suppose it's possible, but I'd like more evidence than is being presented right now before accepting the claim.

The North Korean system is severely broken. The large number of people killed through famine is direct evidence of that.

The famine in North Korea was partly (largely?) caused by massive flooding.

And this is part of what I'm talking about, I guess... a famine caused partly by drought in 'non-enemies' is attributed to drought; a famine caused by partly by flooding in an 'enemy' is attributed to their 'evil system'. Or so it seems, to me...
 
The NPT requires countries with nukes to get rid of them, and Russia and the US, India, China are not.
At least, India and China adopt the minimum deterrent policy, Russia and the US do not.

Actually, India are not members of the NPT so they presumably don't fall under the obligations of the treaty.

See above.
"Wipe off the map" was a lie made up by Western media. Go get informed.

This is not entirely true. Although Amadinejad did not say "wiped off the map", the initial translation of it that way was on Iranian state media.

Nevertheless, Ahmadinejad quite regularly does say "Marg Bar Israel!" (Death to Israel!) and apparently Khamenei has said "The Zionist entity is a cancer which will be cut out of the region". By now it is pretty clear what Iranian leaders are trying to say.
 
The famine in North Korea was partly (largely?) caused by massive flooding.

Partly, but more of a "straw-that-broke-the-camels-back". The country had already gone far into reverse in terms of food production thanks to no longer having anyone to bail them out, no regular aid, no oil for farming machinery, and an absolutely atrocious distribution system which was "army-first" meaning that those who weren't in the army ended up having to fend for themselves.

A good book on the subject is "Nothing to Envy" by Barbara Demick.
 
Here's the difference. The US has a lot of nukes, but it is extremely unlikely that we would give them to anyone to use.

The arsenal of nukes the US holds on to, currently are largely a relic of the cold war, and primarily serve as a deterrent for other nations who also have arsenals of world destroyer weapons to not use them.
You have given nuclear technology to other countries in the past and continue to do so. The nuclear weapons my country has toted around for the last 50 years or so were largely of US design.

Iran on the other hand does have a lot of friends and groups they support who include the goal of killing millions of people as their primary missions. In addition, the Iranian government itself regularly states that carrying out mass genocide would be a great thing to do that they would really like to be able follow through on sometime.

Mixing nukes with a country that regularly publically fantasizes about wiping other countries off the map is a very bad idea.
You can find "bomb them back to the stone age" rhetoric in the US, too. For instance one of the things the US right is running on right now is how they should be "tougher on Iran". Whilst the politicians won't say they want war, many of their supporters do.

And if you're going to tote up how much blood Iranian politics has on its hands in the last decade or so versus how much blood the US has... well the US would lose that comparison rather badly.

I don't claim there's no difference here, by the way. It's true that Iranian leaders openly call for genocide whilst American leaders do not. But personally I think the statements Iran makes are of the "Death to America!" kind of level. They're for public consumption at home, nothing more. I doubt a nuclear Iran would attack Israel, or America. They're not suicidal.

The instability of the N. Korean regime which every so often bombs South Koreans and kills massive numbers of their own citizens is also a very problematic mixture for nuclear weapons.
Yes it is. And yet... North Korea, perhaps the most insane nation in the world, has not in fact used nuclear weapons. Interesting, no? It's almost like no matter what people say, no matter how crazy they appear to be, the calculation of "If I do this then I, personally, will almost certainly die along with everything I care about." weighs heavily on them.
 
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Yes it is. And yet... North Korea, perhaps the most insane nation in the world, has not in fact used nuclear weapons. Interesting, no? It's almost like no matter what people say, no matter how crazy they appear to be, the calculation of "If I do this then I, personally, will almost certainly die along with everything I care about." weighs heavily on them.

North Korea are not thought to actually have "nuclear weapons" as such. They probably managed a couple of nuclear detonations but their nuclear material is not "weaponised".
 
You can find "bomb them back to the stone age" rhetoric in the US, too. For instance one of the things the US right is running on right now is how they should be "tougher on Iran". Whilst the politicians won't say they want war, many of their supporters do.

Weak stuff.

Not even remotely analogous.

I don't care that you go on to CYA with that little disclaimer of having never said something, but then why bring it up in the first place?
 
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Weak stuff.

Not even remotely analogous.

I don't care that you go on to CYA with that little disclaimer of having never said something, but then why bring it up in the first place?

What I said was that it's not the same but it is similar - which it is. Romney runs on being "tougher on Iran". Many of his supporters openly state that there should be war, and he certainly doesn't rule that out. Threatening war isn't threatening genocide, but it certainly is far more than "remotely analogous".

Indeed it's worse than the things Iran says in some ways since in the case of the US, you can reasonably make the argument that it's not just empty rhetoric because the US actually does attack and invade other countries on a fairly regular basis.
 
By the way, what is it with you and rushing to the defense of every bloody brutal dictator? Do you feel that they are being unfairly picked on and desperately need your protection?

There is a valid consideration with regards to how the media works. Kim can't exactly sue for libel and there is a market for "wierd and nasty stuff done by north koreans". Thus it is reasonable to question any story that fits that mold without some pretty solid sources.
 
FWIW, IIRC, the map-wiping quote was pretty wrong, but the better translation was something like "wipe off the pages of history," which might even be worse.

However, Seismosaur has a good point about US belicosity compared to Iranian. Especially since the countries we've (I too use we, being in the US) invaded/re-built/targeted surround Iran (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria)
 
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IIRC this story originated with The Chosun Ilbo, who used an unnamed source to correct their previous story on the purge, which stated that the executed officer had been killed by firing squad.

FWIW, IIRC, the map-wiping quote was pretty wrong, but the better translation was something like "wipe off the pages of history," which might even be worse.
One suggestion was "The regime which is occupying Jerusalem should vanish from the pages of time".
 

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