Norman Minetta

[stundie]

Bolding mine. . .replace this word with everyone and see why your claim is getting so much grief.

Does it really matter how the question is asked?

Again along with Cylinder, Horatius....Why don't you show me links to prove that Minetas testimony is wrong or his time line is wrong?

I'm guessing because for all your chat...You can't provide ANYTHING at all??

 

[stundie]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60315&highlight=mineta
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62417&highlight=mineta
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63663&highlight=mineta
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65485&highlight=mineta

Links to the forum?? Eh??

I have looked through these before. These are conclusions based on virtually no evidence?

This threads seem to be nothing more Gravy & Gumfoots and other JREFers account of they think happened. hahahaha!!

Its all based on bully boy tactics of the JREFers in this forum who love nothing more than jupming up & down on anyone who doesn't tow the official line....

Read through this post and you will see, they have avoided the question like many others in here.

So....Again along with Cylinder, Horatius, Moshuma....Why don't you show me links to prove that Minetas testimony is wrong or his time line is wrong?

Is it because you can't because you have ALREADY Concluded he must be wrong....Again I'll await your reply...along with the others!

 

[Bell]

Thought I had commented on it.

So if we are to use this arguement not just on Minetas testimoney but everyone else, then how do we assert anyones statements?

Or is this only applicable to Mineta because his version of events would prove that Cheney knew the plane was heading to the Pentagon??

I understand the tricks of magic misdirection etc, as I'm a big fan of Derren Brown and understand how uses subliminal messages, misdrection to make people see or hear things that weren't necessarily true.

I understand that memory is not always accurate, but 9/11 would be a significant day for everyone and of course, yes Mineta could be wrong, but so could Ashcroft, Cheney or anyone else.

Anyway back to the point...and lets stick with it because Maccy keeps telling me off for going off the threads subject.

I'll ask this yet again....Why is Minetas testimony either wrong or his timeline wrong?

Please post proof, evidence and I'll await your reply along with everyone elses in here who is unable to answer this question.

Thanks stundie.

I know nothing of this Minetta, I only used my example to show that memories are not allways accurate. Ofcourse all the others could also recal wrongly, but when you have x-number of people stating A, and 1 person stating B, it is more logical to asume A is (more) accurate.

 

[Mashuna]

Thanks stundie.

I know nothing of this Minetta, I only used my example to show that memories are not allways accurate. Ofcourse all the others could also recal wrongly, but when you have x-number of people stating A, and 1 person stating B, it is more logical to asume A is (more) accurate.

This was pretty much my point too.

The other people (and records) in this case being listed in footnote 213 to the first chapter of the commission report, as an example.

 

[stundie]

Thanks stundie.

I know nothing of this Minetta, I only used my example to show that memories are not allways accurate. Ofcourse all the others could also recal wrongly, but when you have x-number of people stating A, and 1 person stating B, it is more logical to asume A is (more) accurate.

I agree with you Bell.

My memory is sometimes dreadful (See my posts for proof of that!) but you cannot use that argument to conclude that Minetaas testimony is completely wrong, even if parts of it are, doesn't mean the rest of it is.

The problem is, no one else is stating that Mineta is wrong or that his timeline is wrong. The 9/11 commission have never stated why they never used his testimony, but the JREFers in here have come to the conclusion that he is either wrong or lying.

The only evidence for this is the Log at the POEC which states that Cheney arrived at 10:00am, but Cheney must have been there before 10:00am and I provided eye witness account of people who says he was there and as well as other evidence for this. (Read through the post to get a better understanding)

You should read or watch Minetas testimony which was never included in the final 9/11 Commission, (No reason as ever been given as to why it was never included) because Mineta is saying that Dick Cheney knew a was 50 miles out, 30 miles etc because he was being told this by a young chap as Mineta puts it. This statement could also prove that Cheney knew the planes were going to hit the Pentagon, but because he has never testified, we will never know this for sure!

You could argue that this could be the reason it was left out of the final 9/11 commission report.

The JREFers in here are saying that Minetas times were wrong...so I'm asking the question, what evidence does anyone have to conclude that Minetas??

 

[Horatius]

Again along with Cylinder, Horatius....Why don't you show me links to prove that Minetas testimony is wrong or his time line is wrong?

So, you want links to the evidence? Why can't you search it out yourself, when we've told you where to look? I've quoted the relevant passages of the Commission's report, which indicates which footnotes to check for their sources. Now, here's the text of those footnotes, since you're still too lazy or ignorant to look for them yourself. Can I trust you to google the sources cited in these, or will you be too lazy or ignorant to do that, too? Don't answer, I think I already know.

203. For the President being informed at 9:05, see White House record,President’s Daily Diary, Sept. 11, 2001. For Card’s statement, see White House transcript, Card interview with Ron Fournier,Aug. 7, 2002. For the President’s reaction, see President Bush and Vice President Cheney meeting (Apr. 29, 2004).

204.For the President’s activities, see Education Channel videotape,“Raw Footage of President Bush at Emma E. Booker Elementary School,” Sept. 11, 2001 (remaining in classroom); Deborah Loewer meeting (Feb. 6, 2004) (in the holding room). For his calls, see White House record, President’s Daily Diary, Sept. 11, 2001 (9:15 call to Vice President); Deborah Loewer meeting (Feb. 6, 2004) (call to Rice); President Bush andVice President Cheney
meeting (Apr. 29, 2004) (call to Pataki); White House record, Secure Switchboard Log, Sept. 11, 2001 (call to Mueller). For the decision to make a statement, see Ari Fleischer interview (Apr. 22, 2004). For the Secret Service’s perspective, see Edward Marinzel interview (Apr. 21, 2004).

205. On the return to Washington, see Deborah Loewer meeting (Feb. 6, 2004);Andrew Card meeting (Mar. 31, 2004). On consulting with senior advisers, see Ari Fleischer interview (Apr. 22, 2004). On information about
additional aircraft, see, e.g.,Andrew Card meeting (Mar. 31, 2004). On decisions and the focus on the President’s speech, see President Bush and Vice President Cheney meeting (Apr. 29, 2004);Ari Fleischer interview (Apr. 22, 2004);Andrew Card meeting (Mar. 31, 2004).

206. On the motorcade, see USSS record, shift log, Sept. 11, 2001 (departing 9:35, arriving 9:45);USSS record, Command Post Protectee Log, Sept. 11, 2001 (departing 9:36, arriving 9:42).Fleischer deduced from his notes that the President learned about the Pentagon while in the motorcade.Ari Fleischer interview (Apr. 22, 2004). For the President’s actions and statements to the Vice President, see Ari Fleischer interview (Apr. 22, 2004);White House notes,Ari Fleischer notes, Sept. 11, 2001.

207. On not returning to Washington, see Edward Marinzel interview (Apr. 21, 2004);USSS memo, interview of Edward Marinzel,Oct. 3, 2001;Andrew Card meeting (Mar. 31, 2004). For additional sources on the President’s
desire to return, see White House transcript,Vice President Cheney interview with Newsweek,Nov. 19, 2001, p. 5. For the Vice President’s recollection, see President Bush and Vice President Cheney meeting (Apr. 29, 2004). For
time of departure, see USSS record, Command Post Protectee Log, Sept. 11, 2001. On Air Force One’s objectives on takeoff, see Edward Marinzel interview (Apr. 21, 2004).

464 NOTES TO CHAPTER 1

208.USSS memo, interview of Gregory LaDow, Oct. 1, 2001,p. 1. Shortly after the second attack in NewYork, a senior Secret Service agent charged with coordinating the President’s movements established an open line with
his counterpart at the FAA, who soon told him that there were more planes unaccounted for—possibly hijacked— in addition to the two that had already crashed.Though the senior agent told someone to convey this information
to the Secret Service’s operations center, it either was not passed on or was passed on but not disseminated; it failed to reach agents assigned to the Vice President, and the Vice President was not evacuated at that time. See Nelson Garabito interview (Mar. 11, 2004); USSS memo, interview of Nelson Garabito, Oct. 1, 2001; see also Terry Van Steenbergen interview (Mar. 30, 2004).

209.American 77’s route has been determined through Commission analysis of FAA and military radar data. For the evacuation of the Vice President, see White House transcript, Vice President Cheney interview with Newsweek,Nov. 19, 2001, p. 2;USSS memo, interview of Rocco Delmonico,Oct. 1, 2001 (evacuation of the White House); see also White House notes, Mary Matalin notes, Sept. 11, 2001. On the time of entering the tunnel, see USSS report,“Executive Summary: U.S. Secret Service Timeline of Events, September 11–October 3, 2001,” Oct. 3, 2001, p. 2. Secret Service personnel told us that the 9:37 entry time in their timeline was based on alarm data, which is no longer retrievable. USSS briefing (Jan. 29, 2004).

210.White House transcript,Vice President Cheney interview with Newsweek, Nov. 19, 2001, p. 4; President Bush and Vice President Cheney meeting (Apr. 29, 2004).

211. On Mrs. Cheney, see USSS report,“Executive Summary: U.S. Secret Service Timeline of Events, September 11–October 3, 2001,” Oct. 3, 2001, p. 2 (time of arrival);White House transcript, Lynne Cheney interview
with Newsweek, Nov. 9, 2001, p. 2 (joining the Vice President). For the contemporaneous notes, see White House notes, Lynne Cheney notes, Sept. 11, 2001. On the content of the Vice President’s call, see White House
transcript,Vice President Cheney interview with Newsweek,Nov. 19, 2001, p. 5.According to the Vice President, there was “one phone call from the tunnel. And basically I called to let him know that we were a target and I
strongly urged him not to return to Washington right away, that he delay his return until we could find out what the hell was going on.”For their subsequent movements, see White House transcript,Vice President Cheney interview with Newsweek, Nov. 19, 2001, p. 5;White House transcript, Lynne Cheney interview with Newsweek,Nov. 9, 2001, p. 2.

212. On communications problems, see, e.g., President Bush and Vice President Cheney meeting (Apr. 29, 2004). On lack of an open line, see, e.g., Deborah Loewer meeting (Feb. 6, 2004).

213. On the Vice President’s call, see President Bush and Vice President Cheney meeting (Apr. 29, 2004). For the Vice President’s time of arrival in the shelter conference room, see White House record, PEOC Shelter Log,
Sept. 11, 2001 (9:58); USSS memo, OVP 9/11 Timeline, Nov. 17, 2001 (9:52; Mrs. Cheney arrived White House and joined him in tunnel);White House notes, Lynne Cheney notes (9:55; he is on phone with President);White House transcript, Lynne Cheney interview with Newsweek, Nov. 9, 2001, p. 2 (“And when I got there, he was on the phone with the President . . . But from that first place where I ran into him, I moved with him into what they call the PEOC”); White House transcript,Vice President Cheney interview with Newsweek, Nov. 19, 2001, p. 4 (9:35 or 9:36 arrival; he estimated a 15-minute stay); Carl Truscott interview (Apr. 15, 2004) (arrived with Rice and the Vice President in conference room; called headquarters immediately; call logged at 10:00); President Bush
and Vice President Cheney meeting,Apr. 29, 2004 (Vice President viewed television footage of Pentagon ablaze in tunnel);White House transcript, Rice interview with Evan Thomas, Nov. 1, 2001, p. 388 (Rice viewed television
footage of Pentagon ablaze in Situation Room). For the Vice President’s recollection about the combat air patrol, see President Bush and Vice President Cheney meeting (Apr. 29, 2004);White House transcript, President Bush interview with Bob Woodward and Dan Balz, Dec. 17, 2001, p. 16

 

[Eckolaker]

Stundie and Eckolaker, care to comment on my above post?

Forgive me for not replying sooner, I don't frequent this board yet, nor can I post links...but soon enough.

As for the post you're asking about...First off, is it a quote? Secondly, what is the source.

Would I agree people have a hard time recalling events? Hell no, anyone with any minor backround in psychology could tell you that the human brain is capable of recalling the most vivid of details and even more so when the event in question was extremely significant. I can tell you exactly where I was at 3:13am August 29th 1999. I was in the Angeles National Forrest at a Rave called "Juju Beats". I was listening to DJ Dan spin an amazing house set with my friend while surrounded by about 5,000 other people. I remember looking at my watch for the first time in a few hours, and realizing it was now my 19th birthday. I must also mention that I was extremely high on mushrooms, and weed. I can recall the faces of the girls I was dancing with, all kinds of detailed information.

My point here is that all it takes is one look at a wrist watch or wall clock and most people will remember it. Not to mention, its very easy to tell when someone is lying, telling the truth, or unsure about an answer when recalling events. Most people are completely un-aware of the body language we exhibit when recalling events. Mineta was not lying or unsure.

 

[firecoins]

The problem is, no one else is stating that Mineta is wrong or that his timeline is wrong. The 9/11 commission have never stated why they never used his testimony, but the JREFers in here have come to the conclusion that he is either wrong or lying.

Uhhh Norman Minttea said he was wrong. The 9/11 report said he was wrong bcause they did not go with his version of events.

The JREFers in here are saying that Minetas times were wrong...so I'm asking the question, what evidence does anyone have to conclude that Minetas??

everyone else's time frames, physical evidence.

 

[Eckolaker]

Welcome to the forums, Eckolaker.

I have no doubt that you have an excellent memory. But suppose you were certain of the time of day of an event 19 months ago. Then suppose there were multiple written, time-coded accounts and other records (such as phone records) made during that event that said otherwise. Would you still insist that you were right?

In regards to 9/11, I can tell you just about everything that I did that day. I could probably narrow everything down to a 15minute window even today. From the time I was woken up by my mom at 6:05am PST all the way until between 4:00am and 4:15am when the last thing I remember before falling asleep was military jets flying over my house.

 

[Eckolaker]

Uhhh Norman Minttea said he was wrong. The 9/11 report said he was wrong bcause they did not go with his version of events.

Pure speculation. Something I try and avoid when talking about 9/11.


Yes I am trying to pad my post count so I can start posting links.

 

[firecoins]

For a start VP Cheney NEVER testified to the commission! !

Cheney was interviwed by the commission with Pres. Bush by the commission in private. Their interview was used to help set up the interview.

Rumsfeld was in the Pentagon, so god knows who he can refute anything Mineta said seeing as he wasn't there. I'd love to hear how Rumsfelds statement contradicts Mineta! Or is this an assumption??

Rumsfeld took part in various conversations and phone calls through out the day. His testimony was used to help set up the timeline

So why do you not explain how Reagan National Airports ATC, the FAA, Rice, Boltan, Ashcrofts and several other peoples account dismiss Minetas? Just saying so doesn't make it so?

They lied but Minetta was telling the truth? evidence?

As the 9/11 Commission ever given details on why they ignored Minetas testimony?? Would love to hear from who....and more importantly why??

They should ignore everyone else?

Of course Mineta could be wrong, but couldn't other people be wrong too!

all of them? They are all wrong. Only Minetta was right? hmmm

Like everyone else on this post, you have not stated why he is wrong, other than he just is. Don't tell me too look through the threads, because I have and yet still no one can explain it.

he is wrong because everyone else contrdiucts him, phyusical evidence contradicts him. Minetta claims he didn't know much and was the wrong person to ask.

 

[firecoins]

Pure speculation. Something I try and avoid when talking about 9/11.


Yes I am trying to pad my post count so I can start posting links.

Minetta said he was the wrong person to ask during his testimony on televison. FACT!

 

[Eckolaker]

Lets all agree that Bush and Cheney did not even want to testify before the commission. Not to mention, that when finally pressured to do so, it was under their terms. Cheney refused to allow Bush to be questioned alone, the session was to be in private and they did not have to swear under oath. They presented a list of questions they would be willing to answer and elaborate on.

Bush didn't even want a commission at all!

 

[Horatius]

Bush didn't even want a commission at all!

The guy who's first reaction was to sit on a stool didn't want to be publicly questioned about his actions that day? Shock! Awe! It must have been an inside job!


CYA =/= Inside Job.


A politician not wanting to look like a fool in public doesn't prove anything other than he is a politician.

 

[Mashuna]

Would I agree people have a hard time recalling events? Hell no, anyone with any minor backround in psychology could tell you that the human brain is capable of recalling the most vivid of details and even more so when the event in question was extremely significant. I can tell you exactly where I was at 3:13am August 29th 1999. I was in the Angeles National Forrest at a Rave called "Juju Beats". I was listening to DJ Dan spin an amazing house set with my friend while surrounded by about 5,000 other people. I remember looking at my watch for the first time in a few hours, and realizing it was now my 19th birthday. I must also mention that I was extremely high on mushrooms, and weed. I can recall the faces of the girls I was dancing with, all kinds of detailed information.

Really? I've seen quite a lot of psychology literature showing how unreliable eyewitness testimony is. The human brain may well be capable of recalling vivid details, but it's also capable of creating vivid memories that seem entirely real but are not accurate.

My point here is that all it takes is one look at a wrist watch or wall clock and most people will remember it. Not to mention, its very easy to tell when someone is lying, telling the truth, or unsure about an answer when recalling events. Most people are completely un-aware of the body language we exhibit when recalling events. Mineta was not lying or unsure.

See above, Mineta could be quite sure of his recollection, but still be wrong. I'll leave aside the whole 'I could tell he was telling the truth by his body language' part

 

[Bell]

Forgive me for not replying sooner, I don't frequent this board yet, nor can I post links...but soon enough.

As for the post you're asking about...First off, is it a quote? Secondly, what is the source.

Would I agree people have a hard time recalling events? Hell no, anyone with any minor backround in psychology could tell you that the human brain is capable of recalling the most vivid of details and even more so when the event in question was extremely significant. I can tell you exactly where I was at 3:13am August 29th 1999. I was in the Angeles National Forrest at a Rave called "Juju Beats". I was listening to DJ Dan spin an amazing house set with my friend while surrounded by about 5,000 other people. I remember looking at my watch for the first time in a few hours, and realizing it was now my 19th birthday. I must also mention that I was extremely high on mushrooms, and weed. I can recall the faces of the girls I was dancing with, all kinds of detailed information.

My point here is that all it takes is one look at a wrist watch or wall clock and most people will remember it. Not to mention, its very easy to tell when someone is lying, telling the truth, or unsure about an answer when recalling events. Most people are completely un-aware of the body language we exhibit when recalling events. Mineta was not lying or unsure.

I am the source for my post. I have experienced it at work

 

[Eckolaker]

Really? I've seen quite a lot of psychology literature showing how unreliable eyewitness testimony is. The human brain may well be capable of recalling vivid details, but it's also capable of creating vivid memories that seem entirely real but are not accurate.



See above, Mineta could be quite sure of his recollection, but still be wrong. I'll leave aside the whole 'I could tell he was telling the truth by his body language' part

Sure, if you want to fall back on a "blanket" excuse. Again, we can sit hear and speculate all we want,(which appears to be a common theme here) but at the end of the day it accomplishes nothing.

Why do I want an Independent investigation? Simple, I would rather be completely wrong about 9/11, the have been right all along. If the latter is true, or even 10% true, our country is in worse shape then anyone here would care to admit. However, as they say "perception is reality", regardless of what the reality of the situation truly is.

 

[Eckolaker]

I am the source for my post. I have experienced it at work

Roger that.

What gets me is everyone here is so quick to make excuses for the official story. Yet at the same time dismiss anything that doesn't fit the official myth, as well as ignoring the obvious historical consistencies. Is it not common knowledge that politicians and men of power lie on a consistent basis? Is it not common knowledge that the corporations own this country?

9/11 = Business as usual. Not the first or last time this country has been attacked by its own. It's in our history...History is doomed to repeat itself.

 

[maccy]

Roger that.

What gets me is everyone here is so quick to make excuses for the official story. Is it not common knowledge that politicians and men of power lie on a consistent basis? Is it not common knowledge that the corporations own this country?

9/11 = Business as usual. Not the first or last time this country has been attacked by its own. It's in our history...History is doomed to repeat itself.

You're assuming the conclusion and then trying to make you evidence fit that conclusion.

People here are basing their conclusion about Mineta on the evidence, not a pre-conceived notion of the government's capabilities and motives.

On what occasions prior to 9/11 was the US attacked by its own?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Roger that.

What gets me is everyone here is so quick to make excuses for the official story.

What "excuses"? Cite a specific one please.

Yet at the same time dismiss anything that doesn't fit the official myth

Debunking, alternative explanations, etc are not "dismiss"ing things.

, as well as ignoring the obvious historical consistencies.

Specific example?

Is it not common knowledge that politicians and men of power lie on a consistent basis? Is it not common knowledge that the corporations own this country?

Argumentum ad populum

9/11 = Business as usual.

Clarify please.

Not the first or last time this country has been attacked by its own. It's in our history...History is doomed to repeat itself.

Evidence? Specific example?