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Norman Minetta

Typo King

Sorry,

What I mean't to say was, if planes scrambled in the air!

This contradicts the conversations of the NORAD Tapes between the FAA and NORAD.

In previous history, if the FAA saw a plane go off track, lost contact either visual or audio, then NORAD would scramble a plane to establish a visual too evaluate if there was a problem or whether it was a threat.

They did this procedure 60 odd times before 9/11 and over 100 times the previous year, yet they failed on 9/11.

We are supposed to believe that because they were playing war games, that NORAD was confused. This is just a big long list of coincidences of 9/11. If they had attacked any other day...those people might still be alive!!
 
You are picking small arguements here

1 Plane hit WTC 1
1 Plane hit WTC 2
1 Plane hit Pentagon (Flight 77)....Althought this opens up another bag of worms, like was it a plane or something else?
1 Plane crashed in Penslyvania.

That would be 3 planes out of 4 hitting there targets.

How do I know for sure if the Pentagon was there target, but if it wasn't then it was a bloody good miss then?

You use that logic to say "How do we know that both WTC were the targets".

We assume they were the targets because they are important American landmarks.

Lets just say the Pentagon was not the target...Not sure why that arguement is relevant? Care to enlighten me??
 
stundie said:
Sorry,



This contradicts the conversations of the NORAD Tapes between the FAA and NORAD.

In previous history, if the FAA saw a plane go off track, lost contact either visual or audio, then NORAD would scramble a plane to establish a visual too evaluate if there was a problem or whether it was a threat.

They did this procedure 60 odd times before 9/11 and over 100 times the previous year, yet they failed on 9/11.

We are supposed to believe that because they were playing war games, that NORAD was confused. This is just a big long list of coincidences of 9/11. If they had attacked any other day...those people might still be alive!!
Click to expand...
Stundie
This recycled fertilizer is running out of nutrients.
If you had a lick of decency, or were even a facsimile of a human being with anything more than rudimentary language skills, you would have realized that this horse has been beaten to death by you 1-at-a-time, learning impared lemmings who follow Avery and his ilk right over the cliff with nary a look around at the situation.
This BS has been buried so many times tit has composted. So you jump in, hoping we will have forgotten it.
Ain't gonna happen, son. Go do a little research, then come back when youn have something new.
 
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Stundie, this has been covered in some detail in other threads. This is why people are not inclined to argue all the specifics with you again. Here are my previous posts pointing timmyg in to the already exisitng discussions:

maccy said:
I think I have more patience for this sort of question the Gravy does, but he's right - any question you have will probably have already been answered so it's worth doing a search first and finding the thread that covers this. If you still have questions, you can start a new thread or bump an existing one.

Anyway, for fear that you'll take Gravy's admonisment the wrong way and flee the forum without looking at the facts, here are some threads on this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65485
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62417
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60315

By the way, it's worth checking your spelling before doing a search :)
Click to expand...

maccy said:
People are suggesting that the evidence is sufficient to discount Mineta's testimony, they aren't "defending the right not to investigate something" whatever that may be.

I suggest that you take some time, read over the posts and come up with a timeline that explains Mineta's testimony and what Cheney was doing. You'll also need to account for the NORAD timeline, the known movements of the president (including when we could see him on TV) and the other testimony of wirness in the 9/11 report.

I suggest you start by carefully re-reading this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60315

And by studying the NORAD timeline:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61752

In general, I think you are rushing to conclusions without showing your reasoning or presenting evidence. You need to be much more methodical and take things a step at a time.
Click to expand...

And here is a good summary from Gumboot.

gumboot said:
That is correct, although Mineta *thought* it was AA77. The Secret Service were not actually tracking the aircraft (surprise, surprise, there's no radar scopes in the Whitehouse!) but were tracking the projected path of UA93 based on its previously known position.

Hence while the "fifty miles out" conversation was underway, UA93 was actually a smoking hole in the ground. But no one at the Whitehouse knew that.

Mineta makes it clear in his statement that at the time he had no idea what they were referring to. He later assumed it had been AA77 (as that was the only flight that came that close to Washington DC).

However, as has been demonstrated before, Mineta's testimony is consistantly wrong in timeframe. My guess is he determined AA77 was the flight in question, approximated the time of the conversation based on that, and worked backwards from there.

What I find odd is CTers who put so much stock in Mineta's testimony, and yet at the same time claim it was a stand-down order even though, in his testimony, Mineta CLEARLY states he believes it was a shoot-down order.

So, what is it to be? Is Mineta's testimony accurate? Or is it not? You cannot have it both ways.

-Gumboot
Click to expand...

Please study the other threads before commenting further on this one.
 
stundie said:
Lets just say the Pentagon was not the target...Not sure why that arguement is relevant? Care to enlighten me??
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Hey, you're the one that said the intended target of Flight 77 was the Pentagon and I'm just asking how do you know it was the Pentagon and not the White House or the Capital building?

If you're a CTer that believes that something other than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, well then the intended target would be pretty important I'd think.
 
stundie said:
Third, Mineta's interpretation would not make the episode intelligible. Had Cheney given the expected order - the order to have an aircraft approaching the Pentagon shot down - we could not explain why the young man asked if the order still stood. It would have been abundantly obvious to him that it would continue to stand until the aircraft was actually shot down.

His question would ONLY make sense, however, if "the orders" were ones that seemed unusual.

Analysis of this event proposes that “the orders” that the “young man” referred too, were in fact to stand down, rather than shoot down.
Click to expand...

Why is it so surprising to you that a young military officer, sworn to protect the people of the United States, might have a problem with being ordered to shoot down a plane full of innocent people?

Without a doubt, considered entirely rationally, that's the correct order to give, but emotionally, it's an order that would be very hard for most people to carry out. His questions seem to me to be "Are we sure we want to do this?" type questions. He might be thinking that they haven't considered all the possible alternatives. Perfectly natural second-guessing that accompanies any hard decision.

Seeking better alternatives is a noble goal, but in the severe time pressure on that day, it simply wasn't possible. The shoot down order was probably the best of a bad lot of actions that they could have actually taken. I'm not at all surprised that some of the people invoved weren't happy with it. I know I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to make that call.
 
Failure in logic here...Please read my post.

Maccy,

Read the posts....yet it STILL doesn't add up or make any logical sense.

----------------------------------
1st Arguement I've seen.....is that Mineta was speculating that it was flight AA77 when it was flight UA93?

It could not have been flight UA93!

Why would someone tell Cheney, the plane is 50 miles, 30 miles etc out when no one knew what the target was for UA93? So UA93 was 50 Miles from what or where?? They didn't know the target.

--------------------------
2nd Arguement I've seen. Norman Mineta arrival time is wrong he didn't come til later on.

Qoute:
"Sec. Mineta arrives at PEOC:
This is disputed by the USSS alarm log presented the the Commission that shows the time as 0937 (Report pp. 39-40), by Secret Service agents Nelson Garabito,and Terry van Steenburgen who testified to the Commission that the VP had not yet evacuated at 0933 at the time time of the Reagan Nat'l Airport call to the White House Secret Service detail (Report p. 39), by Secret Service agent Rocco Delmonico who testified to the actual timing of the evacuation (Report pp. 39-40) among others."

So lets say this is correct!

Norman Minetta arrvives about the same time the Plane hits the Pentagon (9:37:46am) right?

Then it's 5-6 minutes before the lad tells Cheney the plane is 50 Miles out right??

So back to my 1st arguement. How could this guys telling Cheney about UA93?

-------------------
If you read my post, Norman Minetes time lines make sense and with a bit of maths will tally as to what happened with UA77 and the Pentagon. So it could not have been any other plane other than AA77 that this guys was talking about?

I've read the threads but you have people contradicting each other and some people seem to be making excuses for the contradictary times etc.
 
stundie said:
They did this procedure 60 odd times before 9/11 and over 100 times the previous year, yet they failed on 9/11.
Click to expand...

Yes, outside the US borders. That was NORAD's job.

Where was 9/11? Within US borders.

We are supposed to believe that because they were playing war games, that NORAD was confused.
Click to expand...

No, that's what you believe in. NORAD had their entire staff on board for the training exercise, but when they found out about the hijackings, it was immediate. The problem wasn't the wargames, but how long it took to find out which plane it was hijacked and their targets. When they found out the planes, they only had mere minutes left to launch the plane and reach the destination. 9/11 was a result of an outdated protocal for protecting domestic airspace because everyone, including citizens like yourself, thought no one would be able to touch the US and shouldn't focus their attention on it.
 
Stundie, Mineta even admits later it was merely hearsay.

MR. HAMILTON: Let me see if I understand. The plane that was headed toward the Pentagon and was some miles away, there was an order to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: Well, I don't know that specifically, but I do know that the airplanes were scrambled from Langley or from Norfolk, the Norfolk area. But I did not know about the orders specifically other than listening to that other conversation.
Click to expand...

Seriously, why do you continue to bring this man up? His testmony was dismissed because it is unrealiable.
 
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MarkyX said:
Stundie, Mineta even admits later it was merely hearsay.



Seriously, why do you continue to bring this man up? His testmony was dismissed because it is unrealiable.
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As I have proved in, why is it unrealiable, no one has yet to explain this and why it's unreliable...other than it just is.

Like I said in previous posts, the only thing people are disputing are the times he said he arrived and which plane he was talking about. If you see my other posts, you will see how his testimony adds up with the events on the Pentagon.

Minetas time was about right and the guy that pesters Cheney could have only been talking about AA77 and not UA93 as others have speculated.
 
MarkyX said:
Yes, outside the US borders. That was NORAD's job.

Where was 9/11? Within US borders.



No, that's what you believe in. NORAD had their entire staff on board for the training exercise, but when they found out about the hijackings, it was immediate. The problem wasn't the wargames, but how long it took to find out which plane it was hijacked and their targets. When they found out the planes, they only had mere minutes left to launch the plane and reach the destination. 9/11 was a result of an outdated protocal for protecting domestic airspace because everyone, including citizens like yourself, thought no one would be able to touch the US and shouldn't focus their attention on it.
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An outdated protocal which was changed so that Bush/Cheney were the ony ones who could give the orders to shoot down!

There was nothing wrong with the procedures, they worked fine for over 40 years!
 
stundie said:
An outdated protocal which was changed so that Bush/Cheney were the ony ones who could give the orders to shoot down!

There was nothing wrong with the procedures, they worked fine for over 40 years!
Click to expand...

Wrong.

You're in danger of looking very silly very soon.
 
stundie said:
An outdated protocal which was changed so that Bush/Cheney were the ony ones who could give the orders to shoot down!
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How was the protocal changed? Here's a link to a CNN from October 26, 1999 regarding the Payne Stewart plane crash. According to this article, only the President has the authority to order a civilian aircraft shot down.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/26/shootdown/

Are you suggesting the protocal was changed to also include the Vice-President?
 
stundie said:
Maccy,

Read the posts....yet it STILL doesn't add up or make any logical sense.

----------------------------------
1st Arguement I've seen.....is that Mineta was speculating that it was flight AA77 when it was flight UA93?

It could not have been flight UA93!

Why would someone tell Cheney, the plane is 50 miles, 30 miles etc out when no one knew what the target was for UA93? So UA93 was 50 Miles from what or where?? They didn't know the target.
Click to expand...

Why would they have told him it was 50 miles out for flight 77? How could they have known it was targeted at the Pentagon? You have exactly the same problem explaining these comments for either plane.

Do you know who it was making these reports? Where were the reports coming from? When they said "X miles out", where was it out from? A target, the location of whoever was tracking the plane, or some other point?

There are so many things that this could have been, unless we get testimony from the people who produced the reports, and relayed the reports, we're all just speculating. Even Minetta admits that he was speculating.

The only difference is, you think your speculation is a perfect recreation of what happened, while the rest of us know it isn't.
 
The VP does NOT have the authority to give a shoot down order. The President or the Sec. of Defense DO have the power.

Minetta was unreliable because he did not hear the order, only a short conversation referring to a previous order given. He assumed it was a shoot down order on flight 77 when it was on 93.

The white house knew D.C. was the target of 93 because it was headed for D.C. when it crashed. The White House did not know it crashed and NORAD had no idea 93 was a hijack. ATC and FAA gave contradicting stories to NORAD on hijacked aircraft slowing down the response of fighter jets.
 
stundie said:
As I have proved in, why is it unrealiable, no one has yet to explain this and why it's unreliable...other than it just is.
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I made the claim in another thread that Sec. Minetta's timeline in inaccurate due to the fact that it is refuted by the testimony of every actor to which it pertains. For instance, Sec. Minetta claims that at some time before 0926, Pres. Bush departed Florida for Barksdale AFB, LA. In fact, we know that President Bush departed Sarasota, FL on 9-11-2001 at 0957 PM. We know this through live media coverage from pool reporters that accompanied the President aboard Air Force One. Additionally Pres. Bush convened an impromptu press conference at 0930 to discuss the situation that was also carried live by most all American TV networks.
 
Stundie,

Your lack of knowledge in this topic is causing you to make some statements that have you looking very foolish.

There are a number of factors...

Firstly, the conversation Minetta overheard must be regarding AA77 or UA93. As I have demonstrated the previous time we delved into the precise topic (I strongly suggest you read the entire thread before continuing) it is physically impossible for the conversation to have occurred when Minetta said, and be AA77.

It is also impossible for the conversation to have occured when Minetta claimed, and be UA93.

From this we can conclude, fairly certainly, that this conversation did not occur when Minetta claims it did.

Now, in addition, as we know, there is no air tracking equipment at the White House. The information being reported was being supplied via other agencies.

As we know from the NORAD Tapes, AA77 was not identified until it was 6 miles south-east of the White House, therefore the 50 miles conversation cannot possibly be about AA77.

UA93, as we know, never reached within the ranges described by the conversation, therefore it could not be about UA93, or could it?

We know from other accounts that the USSS were tracking a PROJECTED path of UA93. They were not in real-time contact with the FAA.

Another witness describes a situation in which the shoot down order has been issued (some time after 1000), the VP is in the Bunker, aircraft are stationed over DC to face any intercepts, and the USSS are tracking the projected path of UA93 as it closes on Washington DC.

The shoot-down order is unprecedented - it has never been given before. Understandably, the pilots are nervous about this, and repeatedly ask for confirmation of the order, as UA93 is tracked closer and closer.

So an aide scurries out to the VP time after time, getting confirmation from the pilots. Understandable the VP gets a little terse. They're about to shoot down a whole bunch of American civilians.

But then the communication lag catches up, and it comes through that UA93 has already crashed. Minetta overhears that UA93 is now down, hence his "Oh my god, did we shoot it down?" reaction.

So.

In conclusion, there are two options:

1) Norman Minetta had the time wrong by 40-60 minutes.
or
2) Events on 9/11 not only involved an evil Government conspiracy to sluaghter thousands, but also involved numerous breaches of the laws of science

I'll let you decide which is the more LIKELY scenario.

-Gumboot
 
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