Norman Minetta

[stundie]

If you'd actually read what I posted in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2122610&postcount=108 then you'd have spotted I not only know about that link, but also the preceding one. Then you might have avoided trying to insult me, when that just makes you look stupid.

Anyway, this is progress: we have the second protocol. But you said it was changed to allow only Bush and Cheney to deliver the shootdown order, so to prove that you must point to the preceding version, too, and show us what's changed, and explain how that supports your arguments. Check out my post for the relevant links, and get back to us when you can justify your claim, or want to admit that you're wrong.

I am not trying to insult you. My point is you are asking me questions which can be easily obtain considering you have the worlds largest library at your fingertips.

I do not need to prove that Cheney & Bush could deliver the shootdown order. The 9/11 Commission states it they gave the shoot down order.

As for proceeding events, again the news reports on the links state the changes, I'm sure with more time I could provide you with the evidence before this but it adds no relevence to the arguement.

The argument was Norman Minetas testimony and the fact you skeptics/debunkers think he's a liar or commited perjury.

Mineta has nothing to lie for, so unless he is imagining things, his statement must be true.

 

[WildCat]

The argument was Norman Minetas testimony and the fact you skeptics/debunkers think he's a liar or commited perjury.

False dichotomy.

 

[jhunter1163]

Mineta has nothing to lie for, so unless he is imagining things, his statement must be true.

Why can't he just be mistaken about his times?

 

[MikeW]

I am not trying to insult you. My point is you are asking me questions which can be easily obtain considering you have the worlds largest library at your fingertips.

As I've pointed out, I provided that link before you did. It does not contain the information to justify your claim.

I do not need to prove that Cheney & Bush could deliver the shootdown order.

No, you need to prove what you said: the protocols were changed so that only they could provide it.

But, okay, I accept you're not going to do this. And that rather admit that you can't, you're just going to dance around the topic. So don't worry, I won't make you dance any more.

For everyone else, though, this is a nice example of something I've always noticed. How totally, utterly impossible it is to make most CTers admit they've got something wrong, and the lengths they'll go to avoid that. And how, no matter how much they pretend, they're not interested in discovering the truth at all: pushing The Party Line is all that matters.

 

[stundie]

As I've pointed out, I provided that link before you did. It does not contain the information to justify your claim.

What information is it missing? The protocol before the change...Again what relevence is this to the thread and argument??

No, you need to prove what you said: the protocols were changed so that only they could provide it.

I only provided you with 2 link, one of thems a visual one on youtube. Please scroll up and watch/read.

But, okay, I accept you're not going to do this. And that rather admit that you can't, you're just going to dance around the topic. So don't worry, I won't make you dance any more.

Your the one dancing, you still have not told me of what relevence this is??

For everyone else, though, this is a nice example of something I've always noticed. How totally, utterly impossible it is to make most CTers admit they've got something wrong, and the lengths they'll go to avoid that. And how, no matter how much they pretend, they're not interested in discovering the truth at all: pushing The Party Line is all that matters.

This is hilarious, all I've had from you guys is that this has been debunked, then you provide no EVIDENCE, yet you scream at me too. I don't think I need to point out the contradiction there.

Party line....As I keep saying, I'm not part of any group or movement. I'm not getting my information from conspiracy sites, infact you'll be struggling to find a single link or quote from a conspiracy site. I think you could be guilty of that pushing the offical story!

BTW...The Shoot Down Order is REPORTED IN THE 9/11 COMMISSION. They gave the shoot down order after the ATTACKS! Not sure which part you DON'T understand. Again why is this of any relevence?

 

[stundie]

Why can't he just be mistaken about his times?

Because if his time were wrong, then it begs the question, which plane was this chap talking about when he told Cheney it was "50 miles"

It could not have been UA93 because no one knew where the target was and if you scroll up and read this. It will show you how it is not possible.

Also if you Minetas testimony fits in timeline wise with the attack on the Pentagon flight AA77. Again read up and I will explain.

However if you believe the Skeptics in here, then you will believe as Gravy as posted that Cheney arrived at PEOC at 9:52am. Which of course if true, would raise hundreds more questions like is Mineta mad.

9:52am BTW is the time that Lynne Cheney arrived at POEC.

Hilarious stuff!!

 

[stundie]

False dichotomy.

So is the offical story.

 

[MikeW]

So you want to carry on? Okay...

What information is it missing? The protocol before the change...Again what relevence is this to the thread and argument??

You brought the claim up that the protocol had been changed to allow only Bush and Cheney to make the shootdown order. I asked you to justify it. You dodged, you ducked, you weaved, but you couldn't. And now you're trying to say it's irrelevant anyway, when it was you who brought it up in the first place...

Just admit the facts don't support your argument here. You know it's true. I know it's true. You'll feel better for being honest, and everyone will gain that little bit of extra respect for you. Then we can forget this little side issue and get back to the main topic.

 

[Alt+F4]

- Somebody told me NORAD protocols hadn't changed.
- I provided a link which said they had changed.

I was the somebody and my question to you had nothing to do with NORAD. You stated that an “outdated protocol was changed so that Bush/Cheney were the only ones who could give the order to shoot down!"

I asked how the protocol changed, since at the time of the Payne Stewart plane crash in 1999 only the President had the authority to order the shoot down a civilian aircraft. I asked you if the protocol had changed since 1999 to now allow the Vice-President to give a shoot down order as well.

You responded with a link to a document stating that in the event of a hijacking the FAA and NMCC will request DOD military assistance. Last time I checked, Don Rumsfeld is not the Vice-President. Again, where is the change in protocol that involves the Vice-President and shoot down orders?

 

[jhunter1163]

Last time I checked, Don Rumsfeld is not the Vice-President.

Nor is he the Secretary of Defense, any more.

 

[Horatius]

Another factor to consider - We've been assuming that the discussion had to be about either fight 77 or 93. However, in an earlier thread on the NORAD timeline, it was found that:

It is interesting to note that between 0837 and 1015 (98 minutes) NEADS are notified of 11 different incidents involving commercial aircraft (many of these turn out to be double-ups, phantom aircraft, mistakes, etc...)

(See here)

So, how do we know this discusion wasn't part of one of the false reports? 11 reports in 98 minutes sounds pretty damn confusing to me.

 

[firecoins]

It could not have been UA93 because no one knew where the target was and if you scroll up and read this. It will show you how it is not possible.

From the 9/11 report

At the White House, the video teleconference was conducted from the Situation Room by Richard Clarke, a special assistant to the president long involved in counterterrorism. Logs indicate that it began at 9:25 and included the CIA; the FBI; the departments of State, Justice, and Defense; the FAA; and the White House shelter. The FAA and CIA joined at 9:40. The first topic addressed in the White House video teleconference-at about 9:40-was the physical security of the President, the White House, and federal agencies. Immediately thereafter it was reported that a plane had hit the Pentagon. We found no evidence that video teleconference participants had any prior information that American 77 had been hijacked and was heading directly toward Washington. Indeed, it is not clear to us that the video teleconference was fully under way before 9:37, when the Pentagon was struck.189

According the 9/11 commission, Cheney had no prior knowledge of Flight 77. Flights 11 and 175 already crashed. Delta 1989, a suspected hijacking, had landed in Cleveland and Flight 93 was on a flight path towards Washington. I wonder how they knew what the target was?

The response to 9/11 was Not done in accordance with ANY protocols as it was improvised.
From the report :

The defense of U.S. airspace on 9/11 was not conducted in accord with preexisting training and protocols. It was improvised by civilians who had never handled a hijacked aircraft that attempted to disappear, and by a military unprepared for the transformation of commercial aircraft into weapons of mass destruction. As it turned out, the NEADS air defenders had nine minutes' notice on the first hijacked plane, no advance notice on the second, no advance notice on the third, and no advance notice on the fourth.

 

[jhunter1163]

So if Cheney didn't know about AA77 until after 9:40, the only reasonable conclusion is that the order, whatever it was, pertained to either one of the misidentified hijackings or Flight 93. The 50-30-10 mile countdown must have pertained to 93 since that was the only plane on a bearing for Washington. The distances were based on the projected flight path and not on realtime information.

Mineta MUST have had his times wrong.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Not that it was ever really unclear.

 

[stundie]

So if Cheney didn't know about AA77 until after 9:40, the only reasonable conclusion is that the order, whatever it was, pertained to either one of the misidentified hijackings or Flight 93. The 50-30-10 mile countdown must have pertained to 93 since that was the only plane on a bearing for Washington. The distances were based on the projected flight path and not on realtime information.

Mineta MUST have had his times wrong.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Not that it was ever really unclear.

So I'll ask you the question...if it was flight AA77...then where was it 50-30-10 miles from then?

And then you can explain what the orders were then? Because no planes were shot down that day??

 

[firecoins]

The actual shoot down order

Here is where it came from. Directly from the 9/11 report.

At 10:02, the communicators in the shelter began receiving reports from the Secret Service of an inbound aircraft-presumably hijacked-heading toward Washington. That aircraft was United 93.The Secret Service was getting this information directly from the FAA. The FAA may have been tracking the progress of United 93 on a display that showed its projected path to Washington, not its actual radar return. Thus, the Secret Service was relying on projections and was not aware the plane was already down in Pennsylvania.217

At some time between 10:10 and 10:15, a military aide told the Vice President and others that the aircraft was 80 miles out. Vice President Cheney was asked for authority to engage the aircraft.218 His reaction was described by Scooter Libby as quick and decisive, "in about the time it takes a batter to decide to swing." The Vice President authorized fighter aircraft to engage the inbound plane. He told us he based this authorization on his earlier conversation with the President. The military aide returned a few minutes later, probably between 10:12 and 10:18, and said the aircraft was 60 miles out. He again asked for authorization to engage. The Vice President again said yes.219

The Vice President was logged calling the President at 10:18 for a two-minute conversation that obtained the confirmation. On Air Force One, the President's press secretary was taking notes; Ari Fleischer recorded that at 10:20, the President told him that he had authorized a shootdown of aircraft if necessary.221

an unknown flight 5 miles out.

At approximately 10:30, the shelter started receiving reports of another hijacked plane, this time only 5 to 10 miles out. Believing they had only a minute or two, the Vice President again communicated the authorization to "engage or "take out" the aircraft. At 10:33, Hadley told the air threat conference call: "I need to get word to Dick Myers that our reports are there's an inbound aircraft flying low 5 miles out. The Vice President's guidance was we need to take them out."223

 

[stundie]

God knows how many times I've had to answer this question!

I was the somebody and my question to you had nothing to do with NORAD. You stated that an “outdated protocol was changed so that Bush/Cheney were the only ones who could give the order to shoot down!"

I asked how the protocol changed, since at the time of the Payne Stewart plane crash in 1999 only the President had the authority to order the shoot down a civilian aircraft. I asked you if the protocol had changed since 1999 to now allow the Vice-President to give a shoot down order as well.


You responded with a link to a document stating that in the event of a hijacking the FAA and NMCC will request DOD military assistance. Last time I checked, Don Rumsfeld is not the Vice-President. Again, where is the change in protocol that involves the Vice-President and shoot down orders?

I will say again?? What relevance is this too the arguement? What difference does it make?? and I've posted links with Video evidence on Youtube!

 

[stundie]

Please ignore last post...I'm getting bombarded

So if Cheney didn't know about AA77 until after 9:40, the only reasonable conclusion is that the order, whatever it was, pertained to either one of the misidentified hijackings or Flight 93. The 50-30-10 mile countdown must have pertained to 93 since that was the only plane on a bearing for Washington. The distances were based on the projected flight path and not on realtime information.

Mineta MUST have had his times wrong.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Not that it was ever really unclear.

So I'll ask you the question...if it was flight UA93...then where was it 50-30-10 miles from then?

And then you can explain what the orders were then? Because no planes were shot down that day??

oh and I thought flight AA77 Crashed into the Pentagon at 9:37am. So this throws your arguement and point out of the water......

jhunter has been dismissed for providing misinformaion!!

 

[jhunter1163]

The 50-30-10 mile countdown must have pertained to 93

I never said it related to 77.

And the relevance of the protocol is that you're implying Cheney gave the order when the protocol states he has no authority to do so. We're just asking you to show us where he gets the authority.

 

[firecoins]

So I'll ask you the question...if it was flight UA93...then where was it 50-30-10 miles from then?

Did you read my posts? It came from the FAA who tracking flight 93 in the direction of D.C. THe FAA was reporting a projected path to the Secret Service. Go back and read it.

 

[firecoins]

I will say again?? What relevance is this too the arguement? What difference does it make?? and I've posted links with Video evidence on Youtube!

its extremely relevant! You argued a change in protocol which never occured and we have called you on it.
The Vice President called the President on Air Force 1 and asked for shoot down orders.