Norad?

[A-Train]

A-Train. The fighters wouldn't lauch without an identified target. They couldn't find AA11. FAA could, military couldn't. They had too much ground clutter. The perceived threat for the military was from over water, where there isn't much ground clutter.

These rationales are laughable. I can't believe anyone even invokes them anymore. Why does the military need to find the target? If the FAA has the target, that's all the fighter needs.

It's simple, the fighter heads in the direction of the suspect craft-- which in this case was provided to NEADS by Boston Center-- and checks on to the Center frequency, from where the FAA controller vectors the fighter to intercept the suspect craft.

Air traffic controllers are trained to provide vectors to fighters to intercept. Fighter pilots are accustomed to talking to civilian ATC. They do it every day. F-16s and other fighters fly through civilian airspace every day.

I'd like to hear Cheap Shot's opinion on the idea that fighters can't be launched unless the military has identified the target.

ref, it sounds like you're just repeating stuff without having any understanding of what goes on in the real world.

 

[A-Train]

A-Train, I realize it's past your bedtime as school does come early tomorrow, but when you have time after school tomorrow here are a few things you need to research prior to continuing this nice discussion.....

You need to ask Griffin why he ignored the provisions of The Posse Comitatus Act as it applied to the shooting down of civilian airliners on 9/11. One would think a Theologian would be familiar with that act.

You also need to ask him why he has so many errors of FACT in his material. I started to count his errors, but got tired before the end of the first page and decided it was a waste of time anyway.

OH BTW, you'd better calculate the distance from Otis ANGB to Manhattan again as your mileage is WRONG just like about everything else you say is wrong.

It's actually you who acts like an overgrown teenager.

You always act like you know so much, but you never back it up.

What exactly does the Posse Comitatus Act have to do with shooting down civilian airliners? Why don't you tell us?

What are all these errors of Griffin's? I suspect you don't want to reveal them because they are all trivial and don't detract from his overall thesis.

From Griffin's book, I got the mileage from Otis to Manhattan as 155 miles. Is that wrong? Why don't you say so and I'll correct myself.

 

[beachnut]

why am I posting to a research challenge truther?

The account of Lieutenant Colonel Duffy is pretty clear. The two pilots were strapped in and ready to go:

You seem to be confused about what the issue is we're talking about here. Sorry, but your USAF experience isn't going to be of any use in determining why there was such a delay in issuing the scramble order. Let me clarify for you by providing this timeline:

8:37 AM Otis is notified by Boston Center that it is a certain hijacking, since foreign voices were heard in the cockpit. Nash and Duffy get suited up and strapped in.

8:40 Nasypany at NEADS orders the fighters to battle stations.

8:46 The fighters are ordered to scramble.

8:52 The fighters are airborne and headed to Manhattan.

The delay you are talking about is from the scramble order to the fighters being airborne. You are correct that it obviously takes a few minutes to taxi, etc. That was what was happening from the formal scramble order at 8:46 till airborne at 8:52.

What we are debating on this thread, however, is the first six-minute delay, from 8:40 to 8:46. Why was there a six minute delay after NEADS knew for certain there was a hijack at 8:40 until the formal scramble order at 8:46?

Certainly it was not because the pilots weren't ready to go. Duffy's own words show that they were ready.

We have to wonder just who was issuing what orders to those fighters at that time. Unfortunately, all the recordings of the NEADS weapons officer responsible for handling the fighters are not available due to a "technical issue."



I don't know. But what relevance does this have to the question of the orders issued to the fighters? If Griffin has made a minor error with respect to the top speed of an F-15, what difference does that make to his overall argument?

None.

The first hijacking? Why would an f-15s shoot down a hijacked airplane? That is a nut case idea.

Until you know the intentions, intercepting a hijacked aircraft is for keeping an eye on the hijacked plane, and until we were hit, and they figured it out. ATC did know the second plane was not responding. I actually think the guys did a good job responding. Image if there were 20 sets of hijackers that day. We would have started knocking them down or making them land short.

The FAA cleared the skies! The FAA did it! Never had the FAA stopped all CIVILIAN traffic. I flew the next day, it was very quiet in the sky, only mil sponsored flight and police were flying. If you have experience with flying and ATC you are really horrible at understanding the airspace system and the military before 9/11.

There is no way you would shoot down flight 11 not knowing his intentions. So the first hijacking could never be shot down.

Flight 175, how do you link up 175 as hijacked and find it to shoot it down. Some on tell me how it works. Hurry, it is about to hit the WTC! OMG, you have no idea how ATC is set up in the USA. BTW, there were no real methods for intercepting and shooting down aircraft over the ground of the USA. We always meant to meet them before they get here and shoot them down over the ocean. You are not making progress. Gumboot can now correct me, a tanker toad.

I think we got the last plane anyway. The time line to wake up was the time it took flight 93 guys to step up and rush the cockpit. The chicken terrorist crashed the planes. A real pilot could have flown the 757 like a fighter and kept the passengers on the roof, on the floor, on the ceiling, on the floor, with 3 to 4 g turns and other ways to keep the passengers busy. But our rookie terrorist pilots were not up to the task. They crashed.

The time to look at is when we knew the RULES, and when we were able to ACT. Flight 93 heroes showed us. Would you be the one crying in the back?

How fast can the f-15 go with missiles on it?

Where do you fly to if you launch and you have no target? Which airliner is it? How do you know it is hijacked, not one aircraft directly told ATC it was hijacked, the flight crew in the back called their company? Who knew which plane was going to which building before they hit? No one even had 77 on radar, until it was close to DC and then they did not know who it was. Why are you not making any progress with your hearsay partner Griffin. I am afraid to research if you are as bad or better than Griffin at 9/11 NORAD junk ideas.

You have no idea how to plan the path and time the intercept, you have no idea how fast an armed F-15 goes, you have no idea what weapon it will use and how, you are not presenting any good stuff yet. What is the story and all the details?

 

[Reheat]

The account of Lieutenant Colonel Duffy is pretty clear. The two pilots were strapped in and ready to go:

Even if this were true you have no clue what this means. They do have to start engine and taxi, you know.

You seem to be confused about what the issue is we're talking about here. Sorry, but your USAF experience isn't going to be of any use in determining why there was such a delay in issuing the scramble order. Let me clarify for you by providing this timeline:

Oh, I'm afraid I do have a clue, but you obviously don't. A hijacked aircraft WAS NOT an emergency to NORAD prior to 9/11.

The delay you are talking about is from the scramble order to the fighters being airborne. You are correct that it obviously takes a few minutes to taxi, etc. That was what was happening from the formal scramble order at 8:46 till airborne at 8:52.

So you now agree that Griffin's 2.5 minutes from Scramble to 29,000 is WRONG?

What we are debating on this thread, however, is the first six-minute delay, from 8:40 to 8:46. Why was there a six minute delay after NEADS knew for certain there was a hijack at 8:40 until the formal scramble order at 8:46?

I answered that already.

If Griffin has made a minor error with respect to the top speed of an F-15, what difference does that make to his overall argument?

He didn't just make a minor error, that's huge. If NEADS had the 20/20 hindsight that Griffin and you have they would have flown like Superman and _________. Yea, what would have have done? You're a smart guy, tell me.

 

[ref]

These rationales are laughable. I can't believe anyone even invokes them anymore. Why does the military need to find the target? If the FAA has the target, that's all the fighter needs.

It's simple, the fighter heads in the direction of the suspect craft-- which in this case was provided to NEADS by Boston Center-- and checks on to the Center frequency, from where the FAA controller vectors the fighter to intercept the suspect craft.

Air traffic controllers are trained to provide vectors to fighters to intercept. Fighter pilots are accustomed to talking to civilian ATC. They do it every day. F-16s and other fighters fly through civilian airspace every day.

I'd like to hear Cheap Shot's opinion on the idea that fighters can't be launched unless the military has identified the target.

ref, it sounds like you're just repeating stuff without having any understanding of what goes on in the real world.

A-Train. Sorry to disappoint you, but that was an exact quote of Cheap Shot. I have been in a very detailed exchange with him. Here is another one from him, not me:

About 8 years prior to 9-11 the military had begun dropping some of the common reference points so there were not as many. By 9-11 they were not using common reference points any longer but they were using Latitude/Longitudes. We didn’t know this on 9-11. Realizing this after about 5 minutes a fruitlessness, I had Joe Copper sit directly at the radar and slew over AAL11 exactly when I asked for it to give them and exact lat/long. This was when the aircraft was about 30 Nm north of JFK. Joe gave me the Lat/Longs and I read them directly to NEADS. They still couldn’t find the aircraft. This was very frustrating on our part. The fighters wouldn’t launch without an identified target. On the FAA side of the house in order to get a lat/long, is a three step process, so what method worked bet for the military didn’t work well for us.

 

[ref]

And he can comment more on this, if he wants. I will not. But that's for A-Train to think.

 

[Reheat]

Fly to Manhattan and intercept one or both of the hijacked planes.

Would that have prevented either of the aircraft from flying into WTC 1 & 2.

Are you seriously suggesting that if they were intentionally delayed, by someone who wanted the attacks to succeed, that that is not an extremely grave situation?

Are you seriously suggesting that they were intentionally delayed by someone? (He says in his mysterious CT tone of voice casting suspicion without evidence.)

 

[Reheat]

You always act like you know so much, but you never back it up.

What exactly does the Posse Comitatus Act have to do with shooting down civilian airliners? Why don't you tell us?

What are all these errors of Griffin's? I suspect you don't want to reveal them because they are all trivial and don't detract from his overall thesis.

From Griffin's book, I got the mileage from Otis to Manhattan as 155 miles. Is that wrong? Why don't you say so and I'll correct myself.

I'm not your research monkey.

You better do research on every issue you parrot from Griffin because he's WRONG and so are you.

 

[ref]

I suggest we stop responding to A-Train. Flat Out. He has shown no signs of understanding and keeps repeating Griffin as the only truth over anybody else. I will stop giving any comments from now on.

 

[Reheat]

A-Train, I'm in a generous mood and will give you one more chance. If you will sincerely apologize to everyone you've called names in this thread, Cheap Shot, Beachnut, Gumboot, myself and others who want to contribute will educate you as that IS the purpose of this Forum.

However, if you continue to reference Griffin's garbage and continue to act like a spoiled arrogant brat with a "chip on your shoulder" I don't have the time nor patience to do anything more than mock and ridicule you while pretending to answer your questions and retorts.

Read through the thread with an open mind as there is a lot of good information here. Apologize to EVERYONE in this thread that you've called names and insulted. Don't go scurrying back to p4t and brag about how you've told us "how the cookie" crumbles because so far, you're 0 for 3 with 1 more at bat.

 

[Dr Harry Rein]

What we are debating on this thread, however, is the first six-minute delay, from 8:40 to 8:46. Why was there a six minute delay after NEADS knew for certain there was a hijack at 8:40 until the formal scramble order at 8:46?

UA11 did not crash into the north tower until 8:46. How did NORAD even know that the plane was headed to Manhattan until that time? Where would the fighters have gone ? And what would they have done, shoot down a civilian airliner?

 

[funk de fino]

The account of Lieutenant Colonel Duffy is pretty clear. The two pilots were strapped in and ready to go:

You seem to be confused about what the issue is we're talking about here. Sorry, but your USAF experience isn't going to be of any use in determining why there was such a delay in issuing the scramble order. Let me clarify for you by providing this timeline:

8:37 AM Otis is notified by Boston Center that it is a certain hijacking, since foreign voices were heard in the cockpit. Nash and Duffy get suited up and strapped in.
8:40 Nasypany at NEADS orders the fighters to battle stations.

8:46 The fighters are ordered to scramble.

8:52 The fighters are airborne and headed to Manhattan.

The delay you are talking about is from the scramble order to the fighters being airborne. You are correct that it obviously takes a few minutes to taxi, etc. That was what was happening from the formal scramble order at 8:46 till airborne at 8:52.

What we are debating on this thread, however, is the first six-minute delay, from 8:40 to 8:46. Why was there a six minute delay after NEADS knew for certain there was a hijack at 8:40 until the formal scramble order at 8:46?

Certainly it was not because the pilots weren't ready to go. Duffy's own words show that they were ready.
We have to wonder just who was issuing what orders to those fighters at that time. Unfortunately, all the recordings of the NEADS weapons officer responsible for handling the fighters are not available due to a "technical issue."



I don't know. But what relevance does this have to the question of the orders issued to the fighters? If Griffin has made a minor error with respect to the top speed of an F-15, what difference does that make to his overall argument?

None.

You have left out the starting engines part of this. How long do you think it takes to run up the engines and carry out final checks and get the bird moving. Then it has to get to the end of the runway carry out checaks again and then brakes off?

Being strapped in does not mean ready to go.

How long?

As for your other delay, there is no point launching the birds with no target and wasting fuel flying round not knowing where to go.

You have the cheek to say we made fools of ourselves when we talk from experience but you talk from reading a book by a liar. How foolish did you feel when you mentioned the nose gear door for your Moassad agents hijackers? More foolish than I do I bet?

ETA Spelling

 

[A-Train]

About 8 years prior to 9-11 the military had begun dropping some of the common reference points so there were not as many. By 9-11 they were not using common reference points any longer but they were using Latitude/Longitudes. We didn’t know this on 9-11. Realizing this after about 5 minutes a fruitlessness, I had Joe Copper sit directly at the radar and slew over AAL11 exactly when I asked for it to give them and exact lat/long. This was when the aircraft was about 30 Nm north of JFK. Joe gave me the Lat/Longs and I read them directly to NEADS. They still couldn’t find the aircraft. This was very frustrating on our part. The fighters wouldn’t launch without an identified target. On the FAA side of the house in order to get a lat/long, is a three step process, so what method worked bet for the military didn’t work well for us. -Cheap Shot

I guess by now I should realize that Cheap Shot's opinion is always one and the same with the official story. When he says the fighters wouldn't launch without an identified target, it's just like him contending the Langley jets were scrambled in response to Phantom AAL11, not AAL77. He is just repeating the official story on a subject outside his range of knowledge.

I prefer the analysis of another air traffic controller with quite a bit more impartiality on the matter than Cheap Shot:

NORAD technicians, he [Robin Hordon] explains, do not need “exact coordinates,” meaning the plane’s latitude and longitude, in order to locate an aircraft. For decades, military and civilian controllers helped each other locate aircraft, with and without transponders, by referring to “well-known navaids, airway intersections, military special use areas, major airports, military bases, and other common points of reference.”.........

Another dubious part of Bronner’s attempt to defend NEADS is his statement that the information (given by Scoggins) that Flight 11 was 35 miles north of JFK "doesn't help the NEADS controllers at all.” Having seen this statement, Hordon replied: “In order to believe this, one must believe that the NEADS flight monitors do not know what "35 miles" looks like on their scopes, and that they do not know where the John F. Kennedy International Airport is. Absurd!” Debunking 9/11 Debunking pp. 47, 48

It's just common sense, Ref. If the FAA has the targets, that's all the military needs.

For the record, I do believe that the NEADS technicians could not find the targets on their scopes-- just as I do believe there was a mistaken report that AAL11 was still airborne and heading to Washington D.C. But I don't believe the lack of a NEADS target was what caused the delay in launching the Otis fighters-- just as I don't believe the Langley jets were scrambled for Phantom FL11.

Both of these errors were used after the fact to provide bogus pretexts for the obvious evidence of a deliberate stand-down. Cheap Shot just hasn't figured that out yet.

 

[Spins]

A-Train et al, in the pursuit of clarity here is what happened (as far as I can establish), with regards to Flight 11 and later Flight 175, after the first call was put into NEADS from Boston ATC…

At 8:37:52 Boston ATC broke standard protocols and directly contacted NEADS in Rome, New York about the hijacking of Flight 11. This was the moment that the now infamous exchange between Boston ATC and NEADS occurred...

Boston ATC: Hi. Boston Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.
NEADS: Is this real-world or exercise?
Boston ATC: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.

It's after this exchange had taken place that NEADS ordered to battle stations the two F15's on alert at Otis, according to the 9/11 Commission Report Otis AFB is located some 153 miles away from New York, although they don't specifically mention Manhattan Island.

At NEADS, the report of the hijacking was relayed immediately to the Battle Commander Colonel Robert Marr. After ordering the Otis fighters to battle stations, Colonel Marr phoned Major General Larry Arnold, commanding general of the First Air Force and NORAD's Continental Region. Marr sought authorization to scramble the Otis fighters. General Arnold later recalled instructing Marr to "go ahead and scramble them, and we'll get authorities later." General Arnold then called NORAD headquarters to report.

At 8:46, about 8 minutes, after the initial call was put into NEADS from Boston ATC, the F-15 fighters were scrambled. At this point, because the hijackers had turned off the transponder, NEADS did not know where to send their fighters so the officer directing them pressed for more information saying "I don't know where I'm scrambling these guys to. I need a direction, a destination." In fact NEADS were still trying to locate Flight 11 when, shortly after 8:50, word reached them that a plane had hit the WTC, I assume they would have put 2 and 2 together realized that this was Flight 11.

According to the 9/11 Commission Report radar data shows that the F15's were airborne by 8:53 and because, as I described above, they didn't have a target they were vectored toward military-controlled airspace off the Long Island Coast, they did this to avoid New York area air traffic. The fighters then stayed in this "hold as needed" posture from 9:09 to 9:13.

At 8:47 the first indications that Flight 175 had been hijacked occurred, apparently the transponder code was changed twice but was never turned off. Unfortunately these transponder changes went unnoticed for several minutes by a New York controller because at the time he was focused on trying to find Flight 11 which they knew (at that point) had been hijacked. At 8:51 the controller finally noticed the transponder change from Flight 175 and immediately tried to contact the aircraft; he made repeated attempts, see below...

8:51:42 - United one seventy five recycle your transponder and squawk code of one four seven zero.
8:51:53 - United one seventy five New York.
8:52:09 - United one seventy five do you read New York?
8:52:20 - United, United one seventy five do you read New York?
8:53:52 - United one seventy five New York.
8:54:33 - United one seventy five do you read New York?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc03.pdf

Apparently at about 8:53 whilst checking his radio equipment the New York controller is heard contacting another controller and saying that "we may have a hijack" and he could not find the aircraft.

At about 8:55 a controller notified the New York Center manager that she believed Flight 175 had also been hijacked. The manager tried to notify the regional managers and was told that they were discussing a hijacked aircraft, what now turns out to have been Flight 11, and refused to be disturbed. At 8:58 the New York Center controller searching for Flight 175 told another New York controller "we might have a hijack over here, two of them."

The first indication that NORAD had of the hijacking of Flight 175 came at 9:03 in the form of a phone call from New York Center. As you know this was about the same time the plane was actually hitting the South Tower, in reality they (NORAD) had less than a minute (if that) to respond.

A-Train does this give you any idea how long things take in the real world when hijackings take place, fog of war and all that? In arguing your case you guys (you and Griffin et al) always exhibit a huge amount of hindsight.

For example this is how FAA controllers respond to an aircraft incident, from the 9/11 Commission Report...

From interviews of controllers at various FAA centers, we learned that an air traffic controller's first response to an aircraft incident is to notify a supervisor, who then notifies the traffic management unit and the operations manager in charge. The FAA center next notifies the appropriate regional operations center (ROC), which in turn contacts FAA headquarters.

...this alone would take several minutes and NORAD would always need 100% confirmation that a plane had been hijacked and a 100% confirmed target before they could even remotely think about shooting it down. As has been pointed out you don't want to go shooting civilian airplanes down after the first sketchy reports come in, you live in a fantasy world along with along Griffin if think you do!

 

[Spins]

I guess by now I should realize that Cheap Shot's opinion is always one and the same with the official story. When he says the fighters wouldn't launch without an identified target, it's just like him contending the Langley jets were scrambled in response to Phantom AAL11, not AAL77. He is just repeating the official story on a subject outside his range of knowledge.

A-Train, why is it you hold David Ray Griffin's opinion in such high regard when all he's doing is using the same information that is publicly available and which was also used (amongst other sources) by the 9/11 Commission if, ultimately, you don't believe much of the information is genuine anyways?

Also why is it you hold David Ray Griffin's opinion in such high regard when it's blatantly obvious he knows nothing about the FAA, NORAD, and the protocols that are in place when responding to airplane incidents?

Also why is it you hold David Ray Griffin's opinion in such high regard if he hasn't, seemingly, verified any of his claims and or conclusions with people who have the practical experience and expertise in these areas, such as real air traffic controllers and fighter pilots?

Oh and I said it before and I'll say it again David Ray Griffin (the guy who you cheerleader for) is a Theologian not an Air Defense expert.

 

[Cheap Shot]

These rationales are laughable. I can't believe anyone even invokes them anymore. Why does the military need to find the target? If the FAA has the target, that's all the fighter needs.

It's simple, the fighter heads in the direction of the suspect craft-- which in this case was provided to NEADS by Boston Center-- and checks on to the Center frequency, from where the FAA controller vectors the fighter to intercept the suspect craft.

Air traffic controllers are trained to provide vectors to fighters to intercept. Fighter pilots are accustomed to talking to civilian ATC. They do it every day. F-16s and other fighters fly through civilian airspace every day.

I'd like to hear Cheap Shot's opinion on the idea that fighters can't be launched unless the military has identified the target.

ref, it sounds like you're just repeating stuff without having any understanding of what goes on in the real world.

First I don't know the reason why they won't launch without a target or what I have heard is a "Z Point", I assume it is an AFI (Air Force Instruction). Prior to 9-11 this was there requirement, I assume one of the resons is due fuel on board. They can't afford to waste fule chasing something tha hasn't been found. When they launch fighters they don't launch associated Tankers as well.

Second I wish it was that simple, prior to 9-11 it was an inherent function of NEADS which is also an MRU (Military Radar Unit) to vector aircraft at each other. Even though MRU controllers are similar to air traffic controllers they are not the same. In ATC it is our job to keep aircraft a part, not put them together.

Third ATC has never been trained to vector fighters for intercept, it is not in any training manual, can we vector aircraft behind other aircraft we do it everyday, but to this day we have never had training in what you suggest. We work together in Military exercises today and in some exercise we are asked to participate, but in our training records you will never see a trainng objective checked about vectoring fighters for intercepts. Not a bad idea though and I beleive it should be one of the FAA objectives, but it doesn't exist yet.

Fourth my opinion that is prior to 9-11 if the miltary needed to be vectored behind an aircraft over land ATC could have don a better job. Especially knowing what I know now about the ground clutter. As far as intercepts over water by the military prior to 9-11 I don't ever think I saw a bad intercept. The military was very good at that skill. Today I can't confirm with the new equipment the military has, how good they will be in finding targets. They are allot better than they were prior to 9-11, so I assume here that there new equipment is pretty good.

Personally I have stated before that the fighters were delayed, I beleive becasue they wanted approval for Generla Arnold before they launched, I don't beleive they needed that, but waiting for that approval probably was enough to delay the launch. (maybe this was due to the exercise Vigilant Guardian, and they were not sure to commit assets, I don't know). But understand that the military wasn't treating AAL11 as a hostile threat, and nor was the FAA. We all thought he would land at JFK or somewhere in New York. So the stand down that DRG thinks exist can be explained in many ways. My opinion above is one of them, I honestly don't beleive one was in effect. If other FAA facilities would have called at the first sign of trouble I beleive the military would have responded. So to put the blame of a stand down on them is quite a claim. If New York, Washington, Indy, and Cleveland Center had called earlier then I could see the charge of a miltiary stand down as a possible calim. Now whether the FAA had some type of stand down, I seriously doubt it, but remember there was no real requirement for the Center's to call NEADS directly so I can't fault them for not calling right away. Was there a breakdown at FAA HQ, your guess is as good as mine. What ever there was I beleive it is fixed now and won't happen again.

 

[Calcas]

I prefer the analysis of another air traffic controller with quite a bit more impartiality on the matter than Cheap Shot:

And then you quote Robin Hordon (AGAIN from DRG's book...don't you have any other references or research?) as your "impartial" controller.

Hordon, an outspoken 9-11 conspiracy theorist.

Hordon, who hasn't been a controller for over 25 years!

Hordon, who was fired from the FAA for going on strike in 1981.

Yes, no axe to grind there. I'm sure he is VERY impartial and VERY up to date on FAA procedures.

Your comments just keep getting nuttier and nuttier.

 

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I really can't understand truther logic... There is NO evidence of a STAND DOWN order... And NO EVIDENCE means "IT MUST BE TRUE"

Seriously... if this is people's reasoning, our schools have failed.

Lack of evidence doesn't make something true!

 

[Darth Rotor]

Gumboot,

I have learned from one of your posts that it was actually Navy ATC controlling the fighters scrambled from Otis and Langley.

Who exactly were the Navy controllers who were handling the fighters? Who was the guy Huckabone wanted to choke? Do we know their names? What is their story? Where were they based? Were they housed inside the NEADS complex in upstate New York? Or were they out to sea at the time?

Cheap Shot, I would like to hear your input on this as well.

Giant Killer (Navy Air Controllers) is who the Langley fighters who checked in with after takeoff.

The Navy Controllers worked for Giant Killer, just as they did when I was assigned to a squadron in Norfolk in the 1980's. They are formally known as FACSFAC VA CAPES (the Virginia Capes military/Navy ATC facility) whose primary task is keeping track of aircraft, particularly military aircraft, in the many Warning Areas off the Virginia Capes. This includes the fighters who fly out of Langley Air Force base, just as it applied when ANG F-106 used to stand the Weekend Alerts when I was in Norfolk in the 80's. (I was playing golf at Langley AFB on Saturday morning when those lovely fighters thundered off on some alert/scramble. I don't care who you are, it looks cool. )

The warning areas are typically referred to as "Whiskey areas" after the phonetic alphabet for w, Whiskey in NATO standard terminology. They are numbered W-102, or W-106, or what have you. You might hear a pilot report "entering Whiskey One Zero Six" if you were listening in on the radio.

For example:

"Giant Killer, this is Greenchecker 235, entering Whiskey One Zero Six on the __ radial __ DME from Norfolk TACAN at 2000 feet."

"Greenchecker 235, Giant Killer, radar contact. Squawk 2333. Traffic at seven miles at seven O'Clock, 7000 feet, heading southwest."

And so on.

The check in to Giant Killer is an SOP if you are any military aircrew flying from feet dry to fee wet (land to ocean) in the VACAPES area, (roughly 2-300 miles north of to 50 miles south of the Cape Henry Light House, my memory is rusty here), and out to sea for tens of miles, depending on which warning area, or training area, you will be operating in.

This check in is done in the interest of deconflicting the aircraft in the Warning area with interceptors launching through that airspace. Safety of flight, coordination, hand off to ATC, etcetera.

http://www.milaircomms.com/uhf_facsfacva.html

FYI, you can find some interesting info on what FACSFAC / Giant Killer does at the above link.

DR

 

[Calcas]

Giant Killer (Navy Air Controllers) is who the Langley fighters who checked in with after takeoff.

The Navy Controllers worked for Giant Killer, just as they did when I was assigned to a squadron in Norfolk in the 1980's. They are formally known as FACSFAC VA CAPES (the Virginia Capes military/Navy ATC facility) whose primary task is keeping track of aircraft, particularly military aircraft, in the many Warning Areas off the Virginia Capes. This includes the fighters who fly out of Langley Air Force base, just as it applied when ANG F-106 used to stand the Weekend Alerts when I was in Norfolk in the 80's. (I was playing golf at Langley AFB on Saturday morning when those lovely fighters thundered off on some alert/scramble. I don't care who you are, it looks cool. )

The warning areas are typically referred to as "Whiskey areas" after the phonetic alphabet for w, Whiskey in NATO standard terminology. They are numbered W-102, or W-106, or what have you. You might hear a pilot report "entering Whiskey One Zero Six" if you were listening in on the radio.

For example:

"Giant Killer, this is Greenchecker 235, entering Whiskey One Zero Six on the __ radial __ DME from Norfolk TACAN at 2000 feet."

"Greenchecker 235, Giant Killer, radar contact. Squawk 2333. Traffic at seven miles at seven O'Clock, 7000 feet, heading southwest."

And so on.

The check in to Giant Killer is an SOP if you are any military aircrew flying from feet dry to fee wet (land to ocean) in the VACAPES area, (roughly 2-300 miles north of to 50 miles south of the Cape Henry Light House, my memory is rusty here), and out to sea for tens of miles, depending on which warning area, or training area, you will be operating in.

This check in is done in the interest of deconflicting the aircraft in the Warning area with interceptors launching through that airspace. Safety of flight, coordination, hand off to ATC, etcetera.

http://www.milaircomms.com/uhf_facsfacva.html

FYI, you can find some interesting info on what FACSFAC / Giant Killer does at the above link.

DR

Good post DR.

As an ex-ATC (both military and FAA) I can say that your phraseology is spot on! Right out of the FAA 7110.65...