Norad?

[Spins]

Manhattan is 155 miles from Otis. If the F-15s travelled at only, say, 1600MPH, the trip would have taken only 5.8 minutes.

You (along with Griffin) display a complete lack of knowledge about fighters so let me educate you a little, lets forget about the fact they never had a confirmed target to aim for when they were ordered into the air...

Prior to the development of supercruise (Typhoon and F-22 Raptor etc) fighters capable of supersonic flight needed the thrust boost provided by the afterburners in order to exceed the speed of sound. Unfortunately afterburners use fuel at a prodigious rate, so an airplane that is supersonic with the aid of the afterburner has very little supersonic persistence. The high fuel burn of the afterburning engines can empty the tanks in a matter of minutes. An afterburning fighter must spend most of its time flying subsonically; it can use its supersonic "dash" capability for only a short while.

Unfortunately that figure of 1600mph you plucked out of the air is still over Mach 2, you still need to loose over 800mph to get below Mach 1 and into subsonic territory.

 

[fezzic]

I don't know if it has ever been mentioned, but I wonder if the lay public tends to think of fighter intercept and scrambles in terms of what is normally depicted in Hollywood movies. IIRC, normally you see the pilots running to their planes, then the next shot (seconds later) shows the planes screaming (ok maybe not screaming) off the runway and rushing off to their target.

Certainly, it is rarely ever shown all the steps, actions, and time it takes for a pilot and everyone goes through getting from cold to lifting off the runway.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Sustained periods of time? The flight from Otis to Manhattan is less than six minutes.

Were you one of the people that determined the distance from the flight 93 crash to Indian Lake by using mapquest?

 

[Drudgewire]

The day I'm in the air for only six minutes is the day I stand naked at the front door of the American Airlines' home office and offer my body to every single person in the building who's interested.

 

[Spins]

Why, even if the notification of the military did not occur until 8:38, were fighters not launched until 8:52?
Part of the answer involves the emphasis on the hijacking protocol. Right after receiving the notification of the hijacking at 8:38, Bronner says, NEADS mission crew commander Major Kevin Nasypany, “following standard hijack protocol, prepares to launch two fighters from Otis Air National Guard Base, on Cape Cod, to look for American 11. . . . He orders his Weapons Team . . . to put the Otis planes on ‘battle stations.’ This means that . . . [t]hey . . . do everything they need to do to get ready to fly short of starting the engines.”
Why were the engines not started so that the pilots could take off as soon as possible? The implicit answer to this question, evidently, is that because the hijack protocol was in effect, there was not a great sense of urgency: No use starting the engines until the planes were ready to take off.
Why could they not be scrambled immediately? It certainly was not because the Otis pilots were not ready. Timothy Duffy reports that, after he received the phone call about the hijacking, he contacted the other pilot, Major Daniel Nash, so they were suited up and headed toward their planes when the “battle stations” order came. As this response shows, they were treating the notice as an emergency, which required a rapid response. So what caused the delay? Debunking 9/11 Debunking pp. 46

So Griffin didn't disregard run to the airplane, strap-in, taxi....or anything else.

Yes he did as has already been explained, also in the text you highlighted above he says the pilots were already in their flight suits and headed towards the airplane, he isn't specific about how far they are from the airplane and it's entirely plausible he's exaggerating about this aspect of what happened. So basically as Reheat pointed out previously Griffin still doesn't take into account the run to the aircraft, strap-in, engine start, taxi, etc … 6 minutes to get airborne is very impressive.

Good work I'm impressed you've managed to debunk yourself on this one.

 

[Reheat]

First of all, are you saying Griffin is in error, or the Air Force website he is referencing? Did you read the website he is talking about? Or did you just calculate yourself how long it would take an F-15 to get to 29,000?

Yes, Griffin is in error, what else is new? I don't need to read a damn website as I do know the performance capabilities of an F-15. Neither you nor Griffin do.

More importantly, everyone agrees that the pilots were already in the cockpits, on the runway, "straining at the reins," (Michael Bronner's words) when the scramble order came down. The six minute delay occurred after the pilots were in the cockpits ready to go. So indeed, the time frame we are talking about would be from "brake release."

No, EVERYONE doesn't agree at all. There are conflicting reports. You obviously don't realize that the aircraft are NOT PARKED ON THE RUNWAY. So, no the time is not from brake release.

So Griffin didn't disregard run to the airplane, strap-in, taxi....or anything else.

He most certainly did as he uses 2.5 minutes. Again, the aircraft do need to start their engines, taxi to the runway and then once they are on the runway, they release brake. Griffin leave out a bunch and you are obviously a "cult follower".

By the way, the top speed of an F-15 is actually 1875MPH.

And just how do you know. Have you flown the F-15?

Since you seem to have all of the answers, how fast can an F-15 fly with MISSILES HANGING ON THE WINGS? Psst - It's not Mach 2.5!

 

[Reheat]

It would not be very good if the pilots were already strapped in and ready to go, as Capt. Timothy Duffy tells us the Otis pilots were.

It's Lieutenant Colonel Timothy Duffy. Now who's the fool?

So, the 2 F-15's get airborne in less than 6 minutes, now what? What is it you want them to do?

 

[Reheat]

Sustained periods of time? The flight from Otis to Manhattan is less than six minutes.

How do you calculate that?

 

[Reheat]

Prior to the development of supercruise (Typhoon and F-22 Raptor etc) fighters capable of supersonic flight needed the thrust boost provided by the afterburners in order to exceed the speed of sound. Unfortunately afterburners use fuel at a prodigious rate, so an airplane that is supersonic with the aid of the afterburner has very little supersonic persistence. The high fuel burn of the afterburning engines can empty the tanks in a matter of minutes. An afterburning fighter must spend most of its time flying subsonically; it can use its supersonic "dash" capability for only a short while.

Spin, actually an F-111F would achieve and sustain supersonic speed AT LOW LEVEL with only mil (% 100) power. In full afterburner (5 stages) if the airframe didn't melt first, it could fly for about 45 minutes on internal fuel only. Of course, that could never happen as the aircraft skin would reach maximum temperature well prior even achieving maximum speed. There was no actual maximum speed limit, it's strictly a function of SKIN TEMPERATURE just like the SR-71.

I've never flown an F-15, so I can't say for sure, but I'd guess it would come close at altitude. An F-16 could achieve supersonic speed in mil power on a cold day at a reasonable altitude, but it's doubtful that could be sustained in level flight. However, what you say about fuel is definitely true of both the F-15 and F-16.

 

[Calcas]

I think A train is waiting for his answer back from his boy DRG.

You know, the guy that insists that calls from UA93 were all faked with voice morphing technology...

 

[Reheat]

I think A train is waiting for his answer back from his boy DRG.

Either that or he's asking his buddy Rob!

It's funny that he's not going to be able to determine the speed limit of an F-15 with missiles. That WON'T be published anywhere.

 

[Spins]

Spin, actually an F-111F would achieve and sustain supersonic speed AT LOW LEVEL with only mil (% 100) power. In full afterburner (5 stages) if the airframe didn't melt first, it could fly for about 45 minutes on internal fuel only. Of course, that could never happen as the aircraft skin would reach maximum temperature well prior even achieving maximum speed. There was no actual maximum speed limit, it's strictly a function of SKIN TEMPERATURE just like the SR-71.

I've never flown an F-15, so I can't say for sure, but I'd guess it would come close at altitude. An F-16 could achieve supersonic speed in mil power on a cold day at a reasonable altitude, but it's doubtful that could be sustained in level flight. However, what you say about fuel is definitely true of both the F-15 and F-16.

Thanks for the clarification and info Reheat, unlike A-Train I'll always differ to someone like yourself who has the practical experience and knowledge to back up his assertions. A-Train on the other hand insists on using the theologian's research to back up his assertions as if its already proven fact.

 

[Spins]

Spin, actually an F-111F would achieve and sustain supersonic speed AT LOW LEVEL with only mil (% 100) power. In full afterburner (5 stages) if the airframe didn't melt first, it could fly for about 45 minutes on internal fuel only. Of course, that could never happen as the aircraft skin would reach maximum temperature well prior even achieving maximum speed. There was no actual maximum speed limit, it's strictly a function of SKIN TEMPERATURE just like the SR-71.

Ah yes you are correct, I've just checked the wiki article for the F111 and the F variant was equipped with a substantially more powerful TF30-100 turbofan which enabled it to fly unloaded at supercruise. Pretty impressive for a plane re-developed (with regards to the F variant) in the 70s. As for the fuel load of the F111, doesn't surprise me in the least as it was a huge plane, plenty of space for fuel.

 

[Reheat]

Ah yes you are correct, I've just checked the wiki article for the F111 and the F variant was equipped with a substantially more powerful TF30-100 turbofan which enabled it to fly unloaded at supercruise. Pretty impressive for a plane re-developed (with regards to the F variant) in the 70s. As for the fuel load of the F111, doesn't surprise me in the least as it was a huge plane, plenty of space for fuel.

Correct. The last F model left the factory in 1976. Internal fuel was 32,000 #.

I actually went super several times at low level. Once during a NATO exercise in the Mediterranean we were attacking the USS Eisenhower. I was flying alone as a decoy from way out in the Med and heading toward the Ike as the main force attacked from another direction and accidentally noticed that I was supersonic with % 92 RPM at 200'. Of course the OAT was very hot. The Tomcats overshot the intercept against me and I then flew over the Carrier to brighten their day!

Even tho' the Tomcats overshot the intercept due to my unexpected speed, they probably got me with a Phoenix anyway, so they actually had the last laugh!

 

[Spins]

I envy you Reheat.

 

[A-Train]

No, EVERYONE doesn't agree at all. There are conflicting reports. You obviously don't realize that the aircraft are NOT PARKED ON THE RUNWAY. So, no the time is not from brake release.

He most certainly did as he uses 2.5 minutes. Again, the aircraft do need to start their engines, taxi to the runway and then once they are on the runway, they release brake. Griffin leave out a bunch and you are obviously a "cult follower".

The account of Lieutenant Colonel Duffy is pretty clear. The two pilots were strapped in and ready to go:

The actual scramble order does not come until the pilots are already waiting in the fighters: “We went out, we hopped in the jets and we were ready to go—standby for a scramble order if we were going to get one.” [BBC, 9/1/2002] Duffy continues, “I briefed Nasty on the information I had about the American Airlines Flight. About four-five minutes later, we got the scramble order and took off.” [Aviation Week and Space Technology, 6/3/2002]

You seem to be confused about what the issue is we're talking about here. Sorry, but your USAF experience isn't going to be of any use in determining why there was such a delay in issuing the scramble order. Let me clarify for you by providing this timeline:

8:37 AM Otis is notified by Boston Center that it is a certain hijacking, since foreign voices were heard in the cockpit. Nash and Duffy get suited up and strapped in.

8:40 Nasypany at NEADS orders the fighters to battle stations.

8:46 The fighters are ordered to scramble.

8:52 The fighters are airborne and headed to Manhattan.

The delay you are talking about is from the scramble order to the fighters being airborne. You are correct that it obviously takes a few minutes to taxi, etc. That was what was happening from the formal scramble order at 8:46 till airborne at 8:52.

What we are debating on this thread, however, is the first six-minute delay, from 8:40 to 8:46. Why was there a six minute delay after NEADS knew for certain there was a hijack at 8:40 until the formal scramble order at 8:46?

Certainly it was not because the pilots weren't ready to go. Duffy's own words show that they were ready.

We have to wonder just who was issuing what orders to those fighters at that time. Unfortunately, all the recordings of the NEADS weapons officer responsible for handling the fighters are not available due to a "technical issue."

And just how do you know. Have you flown the F-15?

Since you seem to have all of the answers, how fast can an F-15 fly with MISSILES HANGING ON THE WINGS? Psst - It's not Mach 2.5!

I don't know. But what relevance does this have to the question of the orders issued to the fighters? If Griffin has made a minor error with respect to the top speed of an F-15, what difference does that make to his overall argument?

None.

 

[ref]

A-Train. The fighters wouldn't lauch without an identified target. They couldn't find AA11. FAA could, military couldn't. They had too much ground clutter. The perceived threat for the military was from over water, where there isn't much ground clutter.

 

[A-Train]

So, the 2 F-15's get airborne in less than 6 minutes, now what? What is it you want them to do?

Fly to Manhattan and intercept one or both of the hijacked planes.

Are you seriously suggesting that if they were intentionally delayed, by someone who wanted the attacks to succeed, that that is not an extremely grave situation?

 

[Reheat]

A-Train, I realize it's past your bedtime as school does come early tomorrow, but when you have time after school tomorrow here are a few things you need to research prior to continuing this nice discussion.....

You need to ask Griffin why he ignored the provisions of The Posse Comitatus Act as it applied to the shooting down of civilian airliners on 9/11. One would think a Theologian would be familiar with that act.

You also need to ask him why he has so many errors of FACT in his material. I started to count his errors, but got tired before the end of the first page and decided it was a waste of time anyway.

OH BTW, you'd better calculate the distance from Otis ANGB to Manhattan again as your mileage is WRONG just like about everything else you say is wrong.

 

[ref]

OH BTW, you'd better calculate the distance from Otis ANGB to Manhattan again as your mileage is WRONG just like about everything else you say is wrong.

That's what you get, when reading too much Griffin