Merged No Planes At WTC (Split from: WTC Dust)

[sheeplesnshills]

Obviously because it was much softer than steel. If it had been made of steel the plane would have been undamaged. Didn't you see what happened at the WTC when the plane hit all those heavy steel box columns ? Like butter through a hot knife it was..

wrong again, I've hit a person with my car once......steel car versus flesh....the steel car was damaged......in your world that couldn't happen but it did.

What you don't seen to grasp is the V squared part in E = MV(squared)....give enough velocity even water will cut through thick steel plates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_jet_cutter

why do you imagine a plane at similar speed would have any problem?

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Thats strange this is what should have happened to both engines at the pentagon, strangley
enough there is only one engine and both engines are not found on the lawn
how did they end up inside? How did those wings get through that tiny 14 ft
hole without ripping off even if they did manage to fold back? This i just dont understand.

The hole is the size of the fuselage, one engine hit the foundation and failed to go through so was found outside, the other went into the building through one of the other openings. The wings and tail were shredded just like the wings and tail of the Phantom as shown here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_RGM4Abv8

Nothing even remotely strange...the crash site looks exactly like it should.

 

[Fonebone]

I am unaware of any ammunition, .50 Cal BMG, or otherwise, that uses a hardened steel jacket. A hardened steel jacket would be so hard to engage into the rifling and push down the bore of the weapon, that the weapon would suffer a pressure spike that would lead to catastrophic failure. If you could build a weapon strong enough to hold the pressure, the hardened steel jacket would destroy the rifling in very short order. The composition of an A.P. round is not a "hardened steel jacket covering a lead slug". In .50 Cal non-sabot rounds, it's generally a copper jacket encasing a hardened steel penetrator

And, you do not need an A.P. round in .50 Cal BMG to penetrate steel. I have fired standard non-armor piercing, copper jacketed, lead core .50 Cal ball rounds through 1" thick T-1 steel plate at 100 yds, and they completely penetrated with enough mass and velocity left to go on and damage a mild steel backstop.

Jacket material must be made of a material that is softer than the barrel it is being fired through. Common examples of jacket material are copper or various mild steel alloys. The only exception would be a sub-caliber sabot round, however, sabot rounds generally have no jacket at all, as it's not necessary, since the projectile itself never touches the rifling/inner surface of the bore.

Rolls

According to this resource the std 50 caliber projectile and the AP projectile
are compared in range tests at 200 meters.
using a standard 50 caliber mil load a m2 black tip AP (armor piercing) round can penetrate less than one inch through armor plate.

A non AP M2 unmarked ball round at the same range distance (200 meters) can penetrate only 2 inches of concrete.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

AMMUNITION EFFECTS
The .50 caliber round is optimized for penetration at long ranges (about 875 yards, or 800 meters). For hard targets, .50 caliber penetration is affected by obliquity and range.

The .50 caliber round can penetrate all of the commonly found urban barriers except a sand-filled 55-gallon drum.

Continued and concentrated machine gun fire can breach most typical urban walls. Such fire cannot breach thick reinforced concrete structures or dense natural stone walls. Internal walls, partitions, plaster, floors, ceilings, common office furniture, home appliances, and bedding can be easily penetrated by .50 caliber rounds.

Number of rounds needed to penetrate a reinforced concrete wall at 25° obliquity. Wall Thickness 109 yd (100 m) Range 219 yd (200 m) Range
2 ft (0.6 m) 300 rounds 1,200 rounds
3 ft (0.9 m) 450 rounds 1,800 rounds
4 ft (1.2 m) 600 rounds 2,400 rounds


Penetration capabilities of a single .50 caliber M2 AP round fired from a 45-inch barrel. Range Armor Plate (homogeneous) Armor Plate (face-hardened) Sand Clay
219 yd (200 m) 1.0 in (25.4 mm) 0.9 in (22.9 mm) 14 in (355.6 mm) 28 in (711.2 mm)
656 yd (600 m) 0.7 in (17.8 mm) 0.5 in (12.7 mm) 12 in (304.8 mm) 27 in (685.8 mm)
1,640 yd (1,500 m) 0.3 in (7.6 mm) 0.2 in (5.1 mm) 6 in (152.4 mm) 21 in (533.4 mm)


Penetration capabilities of a single .50 caliber M2 Ball round fired from a 45-inch barrel. Range Sand Clay Concrete
219 yd (200 m) 14 in (355.6 mm) 28 in (711.2 mm) 2 in (50.8 mm)
656 yd (600 m) 12 in (304.8 mm) 26 in (660.4 mm) 1 in (25.4 mm)
1,640 yd (1,500 m) 6 in (152.4 mm) 21 in (533.4 mm) 1 in (25.4 mm

 

[fess]

According to this resource the std 50 caliber projectile and the AP projectile
are compared in range tests at 200 meters.
using a standard 50 caliber mil load a m2 black tip AP (armor piercing) round can penetrate less than one inch through armor plate.

A non AP M2 unmarked ball round at the same range distance (200 meters) can penetrate only 2 inches of concrete.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

And this has what to do with the OP?????

 

[Fonebone]

And this has what to do with the OP?????

post # 7
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6550877#post6550877

 

[BadBoy]

Not according to my 12 year old son.

Same with my 12 year old daughter. I just think they are still too young to know what cool really is man. Though somewhere between being 30 and 40 I lost the ability to dance, not sure where it went (maybe I never had it in the first place). Ill give my daughter that. (I feel more like a primate when I dance now, rather than a human).

 

[Dragonrock]

According to this resource the std 50 caliber projectile and the AP projectile
are compared in range tests at 200 meters.
using a standard 50 caliber mil load a m2 black tip AP (armor piercing) round can penetrate less than one inch through armor plate.

A non AP M2 unmarked ball round at the same range distance (200 meters) can penetrate only 2 inches of concrete.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

From that site it would appear that I am wrong, and for that I apologize. My machine gun experience is 15 years old and I should have checked for references first.

But, The armor piercing capabilities of regular ball .50 cal are listed as .32 inches which is still a hefty thickness of metal. Also, these are probably the guaranteed penetration with the average penetration being slightly higher.

Also, I would be interested to know if there is a difference in the make up of armored steel vs. construction steel. The expected force is also different as the steel beams in the WTC were engineered to account for compression forces from the top down and not lateral impact.

Finally, the .30 cal ball can penetrate a "3/4 inch mild steel door" which is an ordinary wooden door with a thin layer of steel. So smaller rounds can penetrate thinner sheets of steel. Which begs the question, if a .30 cal round which weighs 3.63 grams can penetrate a thin sheet of steel, and a .50 cal round which weighs 48.2 grams can penetrate .32 inches of steel, what kind of penetration would something that weighs 2,000,000 times more have?

 

[phunk]

What does armor piercing have to do with anything?

The planes didn't pierce armor. The hole was formed by the connections between column segments breaking, the columns being pushed in, and the columns around the edge of the hole bending inwards.

Fonebone, do you think a 500mph plane impact can't bend hollow columns made of 1/4" steel?

 

[dafydd]

wrong again, I've hit a person with my car once......steel car versus flesh....the steel car was damaged......in your world that couldn't happen but it did.

What you don't seen to grasp is the V squared part in E = MV(squared)....give enough velocity even water will cut through thick steel plates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_jet_cutter

why do you imagine a plane at similar speed would have any problem?

My uncle hit a sheep while driving in Wales.The sheep walked away,but the front of the car was about a foot shorter.What would have happened in trutherland?

 

[Dragonrock]

In Trooferland The car would have spotaniously powered down 30 minutes before impact and without your uncle noticing 5000 ozs of nano woolmite would have been afixed to the car's front bumper and covered with a new layer of chrome. The sheep would have been a remote controlled holo-sheep that would have accidentally been projected just a bit too far so that its nose appears to pop out of the back of the car. As the woolmite was detonated a DLR (directed lamb ray) would have been fired at the metal that had been pre-softened by the woolmite detonation. While this was going on NWO (Nappy Wool Order) agents will break into the home of the owner of the non-existent sheep and add information of the holosheep to the shepard's records so that he will notice that he is actually one sheep short. Troofers would then exclaim that had it been a real sheep then the sheep would have collapsed against the front of the car like a beer can with its innards spraying out its butthole in a fine red mist and that it was obviously photoshopped because of the pixels and because someone had seen photoshop on a store shelf.

 

[djlunacee]

In Trooferland The car would have spotaniously powered down 30 minutes before impact and without your uncle noticing 5000 ozs of nano woolmite would have been afixed to the car's front bumper and covered with a new layer of chrome. The sheep would have been a remote controlled holo-sheep that would have accidentally been projected just a bit too far so that its nose appears to pop out of the back of the car. As the woolmite was detonated a DLR (directed lamb ray) would have been fired at the metal that had been pre-softened by the woolmite detonation. While this was going on NWO (Nappy Wool Order) agents will break into the home of the owner of the non-existent sheep and add information of the holosheep to the shepard's records so that he will notice that he is actually one sheep short. Troofers would then exclaim that had it been a real sheep then the sheep would have collapsed against the front of the car like a beer can with its innards spraying out its butthole in a fine red mist and that it was obviously photoshopped because of the pixels and because someone had seen photoshop on a store shelf.

Kudos! Brilliant I tell you.

 

[Rolls]

According to this resource the std 50 caliber projectile and the AP projectile
are compared in range tests at 200 meters.
using a standard 50 caliber mil load a m2 black tip AP (armor piercing) round can penetrate less than one inch through armor plate.

A non AP M2 unmarked ball round at the same range distance (200 meters) can penetrate only 2 inches of concrete.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

My information is accurate. I am a graduate of the CST Gunsmith School in Lakewood CO, and I recently retired after 20 years in the firearms industry, 12 of which were spent building and testing .50 Cal BMG sniper rifles, as well as developing and testing their associated ammunition. I own, and shoot on a regular basis, a McMillan TAC-50 as well as a Barrett M-82A1.

Your rebuttal is quoting sources that are either outdated and incorrect, or, do not apply to the subject or circumstances at hand. Out of my TAC-50 and my M82A1, standard lead core copper jacketed .50 caliber ball rounds will COMPLETELY PENETRATE a 1" T-1 steel plate at 100yds. My information is based upon a proper gunsmithing education as well as real world, and recent practical experience which, with all due respect, you do not appear to have.

Rolls

 

[dafydd]

In Trooferland The car would have spotaniously powered down 30 minutes before impact and without your uncle noticing 5000 ozs of nano woolmite would have been afixed to the car's front bumper and covered with a new layer of chrome. The sheep would have been a remote controlled holo-sheep that would have accidentally been projected just a bit too far so that its nose appears to pop out of the back of the car. As the woolmite was detonated a DLR (directed lamb ray) would have been fired at the metal that had been pre-softened by the woolmite detonation. While this was going on NWO (Nappy Wool Order) agents will break into the home of the owner of the non-existent sheep and add information of the holosheep to the shepard's records so that he will notice that he is actually one sheep short. Troofers would then exclaim that had it been a real sheep then the sheep would have collapsed against the front of the car like a beer can with its innards spraying out its butthole in a fine red mist and that it was obviously photoshopped because of the pixels and because someone had seen photoshop on a store shelf.

I see it all now.My uncle was part of a huge NWO conspiracy to blacken the name of sheep.

 

[dafydd]

According to this resource the std 50 caliber projectile and the AP projectile
are compared in range tests at 200 meters.
using a standard 50 caliber mil load a m2 black tip AP (armor piercing) round can penetrate less than one inch through armor plate.

A non AP M2 unmarked ball round at the same range distance (200 meters) can penetrate only 2 inches of concrete.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

Why don't you learn something about the subject instead of cutting and pasting?

 

[Fonebone]

My information is accurate. I am a graduate of the CST Gunsmith School in Lakewood CO, and I recently retired after 20 years in the firearms industry, 12 of which were spent building and testing .50 Cal BMG sniper rifles, as well as developing and testing their associated ammunition. I own, and shoot on a regular basis, a McMillan TAC-50 as well as a Barrett M-82A1.

Your rebuttal is quoting sources that are either outdated and incorrect, or, do not apply to the subject or circumstances at hand. Out of my TAC-50 and my M82A1, standard lead core copper jacketed .50 caliber ball rounds will COMPLETELY PENETRATE a 1" T-1 steel plate at 100yds. My information is based upon a proper gunsmithing education as well as real world, and recent practical experience which, with all due respect, you do not appear to have.
Rolls

With all due respect ...
The rebuttal I used cites these references:
Sources:
FM 3-06.11: Combined Arms Operations in Urban Terrain.
FM 23-65: Browning Machine Gun Caliber .50 HB, M2.
TM 9-1005-239-10: Operator's Manual M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle.
TM 9-1305-201-20&P Change 17: Organizational Maintenance Manual for Small Arms Ammunition.
TM 43-0001-27: Army Ammunition Data Sheets For Small Caliber Ammunition.
MCWP 3-15.1: Machine Guns and Machine Gun Gunnery.
2005 ARMY PROCUREMENT OF AMMUNITION Budget Estimate.

Do you have a countermanding source that states a 50 caliber std. military non AP
(unmarked) projectile with a standard M2 military powder load will penetrate
a 1 inch thick piece of plate steel at 100 yards ?

 

[fess]

With all due respect ...
The rebuttal I used cites these references:
Sources:
FM 3-06.11: Combined Arms Operations in Urban Terrain.
FM 23-65: Browning Machine Gun Caliber .50 HB, M2.
TM 9-1005-239-10: Operator's Manual M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle.
TM 9-1305-201-20&P Change 17: Organizational Maintenance Manual for Small Arms Ammunition.
TM 43-0001-27: Army Ammunition Data Sheets For Small Caliber Ammunition.
MCWP 3-15.1: Machine Guns and Machine Gun Gunnery.
2005 ARMY PROCUREMENT OF AMMUNITION Budget Estimate.

Do you have a countermanding source that states a 50 caliber std. military non AP
(unmarked) projectile with a standard M2 military powder load will penetrate
a 1 inch thick piece of plate steel at 100 yards ?

Unless we are claiming that the towers were brought down by machine guns, this information is way off topic.

 

[Dragonrock]

With all due respect ...
The rebuttal I used cites these references:
Sources:
FM 3-06.11: Combined Arms Operations in Urban Terrain.
FM 23-65: Browning Machine Gun Caliber .50 HB, M2.
TM 9-1005-239-10: Operator's Manual M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle.
TM 9-1305-201-20&P Change 17: Organizational Maintenance Manual for Small Arms Ammunition.
TM 43-0001-27: Army Ammunition Data Sheets For Small Caliber Ammunition.
MCWP 3-15.1: Machine Guns and Machine Gun Gunnery.
2005 ARMY PROCUREMENT OF AMMUNITION Budget Estimate.

Do you have a countermanding source that states a 50 caliber std. military non AP
(unmarked) projectile with a standard M2 military powder load will penetrate
a 1 inch thick piece of plate steel at 100 yards ?

All this is irrelevant as the fact that per the site you reference .50 cal ball ammo can penetrate 1/3 of an inch of armored steel. The reason all this was brought up was your contention that something soft (aluminum) cannot penetrate something harder (steel) and you have since been proven wrong. The fact that it was .32 inches vs 1 inch is even less important when it is pointed out that the outer columns were made up of hollow tubes with the steel in the tubes getting thinner the higher up the towers you went so that at the point of impact the steel was around 1/4 of an inch thick.

So, let's do some math: Muzzle velocity of the M2 is around 2800 fps or about 2,000 mph. The 757 was traveling at 500 mph. The 757 was traveling at 1/4 the speed, but at around 100,000 kg it weighs roughly 2,000,000 times what the 48.2 gram .50 cal round does. Therefore the 757 has 500,000 (2,000,000/4) times the kinetic energy of the .50 cal round. The impact face of a .50 cal round is roughly .2 inches. The impact face of the fuselage of a 757 would be roughly 16,000 inches. Therefore the impact force of the 757 is spread out over 80,000 times more area than the .50 cal. In spite of this the 757 still provides over 6 times as much energy per square inch than the .50 cal.

All of this is errored in the building's favor with some things that would improve the penetration of the 757 left out for ease of math. Things like the outer columns were 1 foot wide and 3 feet apart so there was actually less material absorbing the energy which would increase penetration.

Therefore, it has been mathematically proven that you have no freakin' clue what you're talking about.

 

[jhunter1163]

In Trooferland The car would have spotaniously powered down 30 minutes before impact and without your uncle noticing 5000 ozs of nano woolmite would have been afixed to the car's front bumper and covered with a new layer of chrome. The sheep would have been a remote controlled holo-sheep that would have accidentally been projected just a bit too far so that its nose appears to pop out of the back of the car. As the woolmite was detonated a DLR (directed lamb ray) would have been fired at the metal that had been pre-softened by the woolmite detonation. While this was going on NWO (Nappy Wool Order) agents will break into the home of the owner of the non-existent sheep and add information of the holosheep to the shepard's records so that he will notice that he is actually one sheep short. Troofers would then exclaim that had it been a real sheep then the sheep would have collapsed against the front of the car like a beer can with its innards spraying out its butthole in a fine red mist and that it was obviously photoshopped because of the pixels and because someone had seen photoshop on a store shelf.

This is funny because it's actually not a bad comparison to what Truthers really suggest happened on 9/11.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Forgetthe details of .50 cal machine guns. It's off topic and another example of 'Truther' distraction by picking and sticking on unimportant details.

 

[twinstead]

Forgetthe details of .50 cal machine guns. It's off topic and another example of 'Truther' distraction by picking and sticking on unimportant details.

You mean some truthers focus on semantics and irrelevant minutiae instead of real issues? I'm shocked. SHOCKED I say!