Merged No more algebra?

[AvalonXQ]

I concur with the effort to focus our education on things students will actually need.

I had no problem graduating at the top of my class in high school without being taught what benefits are important when looking for a job, how to deal with common landlord/tenant issues, how to check a basement furnace or hot water heater, how to comparison shop at the grocery store, what considerations go into finding a mortgage lender, and dozens of other little tidbits that I guess we expect every kid to either pick up from their parents or learn the hard way. That's silly.

Every American should graduate high school knowing how to allocate a paycheck to cover likely expenses, what to do to avoid predatory lending, the interpersonal skills for maintaining an effective employer-employee relationship, and how to effectively exercise their basic rights as both a consumer and a worker under state law.

Some basic algebra may actually be necessary to teach these survival skills; certainly geometry and calculous are not.

 

[Dinwar]

You have fun hiring contractors without knowing geometry.

My billing rate is $130/hour, more or less. When you get tired of being screwed over, that's what you'll have to pay for me (or anyone else with knowledge of geometry) to look over those plans you haven't educated yourself enough to read.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You have fun hiring contractors without knowing geometry.

My billing rate is $130/hour, more or less. When you get tired of being screwed over, that's what you'll have to pay for me (or anyone else with knowledge of geometry) to look over those plans you haven't educated yourself enough to read.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Is it that all American students need to be taught enough geometry to decipher construction plans? What exactly is the common situation they're going to face where geometry is important information?

Because I'll tell you the truth -- that's probably going to come up about a half dozen times in my life, total, and despite my very robust knowledge of geometry I still plan to hire somebody to look over those plans for me.

That does bring up a good point, though -- for small household projects, like hanging a mirror or ordering furniture, I do need to know enough geometry to take measurements and map out areas. But that's the level of geometry that's taught in grade school; while I absolutely adored the straightedge-compass exercises and theorem-proving that forms the backbone of high school geometry, I really don't think it's critical to most real-world situations unless you yourself are going to be in some sort of mapping or building field.

 

[Polaris]

I concur with the effort to focus our education on things students will actually need.

I had no problem graduating at the top of my class in high school without being taught what benefits are important when looking for a job, how to deal with common landlord/tenant issues, how to check a basement furnace or hot water heater, how to comparison shop at the grocery store, what considerations go into finding a mortgage lender, and dozens of other little tidbits that I guess we expect every kid to either pick up from their parents or learn the hard way. That's silly.

Every American should graduate high school knowing how to allocate a paycheck to cover likely expenses, what to do to avoid predatory lending, the interpersonal skills for maintaining an effective employer-employee relationship, and how to effectively exercise their basic rights as both a consumer and a worker under state law.

Some basic algebra may actually be necessary to teach these survival skills; certainly geometry and calculous are not.

If more people knew those things the banks and lenders wouldn't be able to crush people's credit scores and keep them in debt until they die. The people who matter on the decision-making level don't want that, so it will never happen.

 

[Ladewig]

Are you also going to argue that car inssurance is worthless? It's the same reasoning.

You're getting bogged down in the details, and missing the fact that I'm merely using them to illustrate a point: math is USEFUL. It DOES have real-world applications.

Yes. And many of the people who decry the usefulness of math are perfectly willing to calculate batting averages and other sports statistics.

Of course the ones who really are innumerate will suffer setbacks both tiny and large. If you want to bet on a college football game and one guy at work offers you 9 to 7 odds and the another offers 7 to 5 odds, then knowing some fundamental math will result in a larger payout. I'm an amateur carpenter and knowing how to find 1/2 of 9 5/8 inches is a quick and simple task for me because I can work with fractions.

One might know that one's car averages 25 mpg and has an 18 gallon tank. But if one wants to know how far one can go on 3/8 of a tank, then algebra is very useful.

I would argue that knowing how to read a map's scale is very relevant for most Americans, but now Mapquest can calculate distances more accurately than the average map-reader could.


ETA: I wonder what would happen to Las Vegas if the U.S. population suddenly became numerate.

 

[AvalonXQ]

If more people knew those things the banks and lenders wouldn't be able to crush people's credit scores and keep them in debt until they die. The people who matter on the decision-making level don't want that, so it will never happen.

I'm pretty sure "the people who matter on the decision-making level" are state school boards, local curriculum directors, and federal agencies that are not generally beholden to the financiers and are generally interested in preparing kids for life after school. Perhaps I'm just not cynical enough.

 

[Dinwar]

I would argue that knowing how to read a map's scale is very relevant for most Americans, but now Mapquest can calculate distances more accurately than the average map-reader could.

Okay, average I'll give you. I've gotten very good at dealing with map scales--when you need it in order to know where to go in a desert, you learn FAST!

ETA: I wonder what would happen to Las Vegas if the U.S. population suddenly became numerate.

If I'm any indication, they'd go broke. I only gamble when playing poker with friends. Don't see the point of throwing my money away at slots or other games rigged against me, and I just don't like blackjack that much.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Is it that all American students need to be taught enough geometry to decipher construction plans?

You're getting lost in the details as well. My point is that math allows us to make sense of the world around us in ways nothing else can. Construction plans are a part of that, yes--it's useful to be able to read enough of a blueprint to see if the contractor is screwing you over or not. Ever drive to a new place? Wouldn't it be nice to know the shortest route there? Mapquest doesn't do that for you, not automatically anyway. Neither do GPSs.

I'm not saying it's going to be universally useful--many people get by just fine in the USA without knowing English, for example. Nor am I saying it's something that's going to be used all the time. I'm saying it's something with real-world applications that many people are going to encounter in their daily lives, and that once you DO have a good understanding of it you'll FIND applications for it.

The people who matter on the decision-making level don't want that, so it will never happen.

If this thread is going to drop down to conspiracy theories, I'd motion that it be moved to the appropriate sub-forum; at the point where we're saying that we're being kept dumb by The Man we're no longer discussing science, math, or education (and yes, there IS a difference between saying "Modern education methods are hampering teaching these subjects" and "People want us stupid").

 

[Hazel]

Yes. And many of the people who decry the usefulness of math are perfectly willing to calculate batting averages and other sports statistics.

Of course the ones who really are innumerate will suffer setbacks both tiny and large. If you want to bet on a college football game and one guy at work offers you 9 to 7 odds and the another offers 7 to 5 odds, then knowing some fundamental math will result in a larger payout. I'm an amateur carpenter and knowing how to find 1/2 of 9 5/8 inches is a quick and simple task for me because I can work with fractions.

One might know that one's car averages 25 mpg and has an 18 gallon tank. But if one wants to know how far one can go on 3/8 of a tank, then algebra is very useful.

I would argue that knowing how to read a map's scale is very relevant for most Americans, but now Mapquest can calculate distances more accurately than the average map-reader could.


ETA: I wonder what would happen to Las Vegas if the U.S. population suddenly became numerate.

Smile. I don't know about Mapquest but I have an atlas of maps for our city and the measurements are given in feet. To clarify, the maps do not tell how far it is from "here" to "there" but the scales are given in "inch = feet" measurement. There is no indication of how many miles it is from here to there. You're on your own.

Get out your ruler and measure how many inches. 1 inch = 2,000 feet. Your distance is five inches. 10,000 feet from here to there. Divide the feet by 5,280? Who says you don't need to go to school and learn the rules?

Another one? Ask someone how far it is from Indianapolis to Toronto. You'll get you answer in hours. When did miles become hours?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Another one? Ask someone how far it is from Indianapolis to Toronto. You'll get you answer in hours. When did miles become hours?

When hours became the relevant unit for gauging travel.

It can take you 90 minutes to travel 20 miles through Chicago, and then another 90 minutes to travel the next 100 miles south of Chicago. Miles aren't the relevant unit.

 

[Hazel]

When hours became the relevant unit for gauging travel.

It can take you 90 minutes to travel 20 miles through Chicago, and then another 90 minutes to travel the next 100 miles south of Chicago. Miles aren't the relevant unit.

It can take whom that long? Some people drive faster than others. Traffic jams mess up time measurements. And - my always comeback - what if you're walking? Of course, not through Chicago but when someone tells me a business is just "five minutes down the road", heaven help me if I believe them. It takes me half an hour to walk five minutes. But, tell me in miles and I'll have the right picture. Tell me it is five miles and I'll know not to set out. Ten minutes?

 

[Dinwar]

It can take whom that long? Some people drive faster than others. Traffic jams mess up time measurements.

No, AvalonXQ has a point here. In the LA Basin new people are always surprised when they ask "How long does it take to get there?" and people who've lived here a while ask "What time are you leaving?" It takes between 20 minutes and an hour and 20 minutes to get to work in the morning--depending on whether I leave at 7 or 7:30.

Both miles and hours are useful for determining how far away something is. Which one is MORE useful depends on the situation.

 

[Hazel]

No, AvalonXQ has a point here. In the LA Basin new people are always surprised when they ask "How long does it take to get there?" and people who've lived here a while ask "What time are you leaving?" It takes between 20 minutes and an hour and 20 minutes to get to work in the morning--depending on whether I leave at 7 or 7:30.

Both miles and hours are useful for determining how far away something is. Which one is MORE useful depends on the situation.

You have a point but.... Our cab company has a place on its web site where you can figure approximately the cost of a trip. In order to use it, though, you have to know how many miles it is to that point from where you start. You can't use "feet" which is what my atlas gives me. You can't use time as many people do nowadays. The answer?

Without sounding picky, another point. Someone asks how far it is. Ask them how they are going - car or plane? Otherwise, you cannot use time. But, if you use miles, they might be able to take a guess at it.

 

[Dinwar]

Well yeah, there are certainly times when giving the time isn't going to be helpful. However, there are also times when distance isn't helpful. If I'm trying to figure out a jobsite schedule I don't care how many miles you have to travel, I care what your ETA is. Telling me "I'm five miles away" tells me nothing--but telling me "Traffic's bad, I'll be therein twenty minutes to a half hour" gives me useful data.

Which form is most useful depends, always, on the context. Different forms of the data will be more useful than others in different contexts.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Our cab company has a place on its web site where you can figure approximately the cost of a trip. In order to use it, though, you have to know how many miles it is to that point from where you start.

I thought cab meters ran according to the amount of time it took, not the mileage driven. So if you're stuck in a cab in traffic or ask the cabbie to wait on you, she's not getting paid? That seems unfortunate.

If, in fact, the cabs are paid according to to the amount of time it takes, then estimating based on miles, especially in a heavy-traffic city, seems like a bad idea.

 

[Hazel]

I thought cab meters ran according to the amount of time it took, not the mileage driven. So if you're stuck in a cab in traffic or ask the cabbie to wait on you, she's not getting paid? That seems unfortunate.

If, in fact, the cabs are paid according to to the amount of time it takes, then estimating based on miles, especially in a heavy-traffic city, seems like a bad idea.

But, it is, as you said, an estimate. The customer knows it can vary. I go to a certain mall. The estimated cost is $15. I have paid $13 and I have paid $17 - even, once, $19. That makes me think the delays must be getting accounted for some way.

As for how the driver is paid, basiclly it is by the fraction of a mile. They start with a basic amount and add 20 cents per 1/4 mile, if I'm remembering rightly. Then, there is a surcharge for extra riders and another surcharge to compensate for today's high gas prices.

You mentioned customer asking cab driver to wait on him. There is indeed an extra charge for that. $20 an hour. Does anyone ask a driver to wait for an hour? I wouldn't. Whether they pro rate that over minutes, I do not know.

I once lived in a town in Kansas where they simply added on a certain amount for each traffic light they had to wait at. Get a red light, punch a button. Add an amount. I forget how much but it wasn't cheap. Whether that was fair or not, I don't know but they had the most expensive cabs I've ever ridden.

 

[cwalner]

My dad's a civil engineer, and similar things have happened to him. One design spec came in with a triangular room whos corners added up to more than 180 degrees. Took my dad fifteen minutes to explain to the kid that this couldn't possibly happen, and that the structure could not be built.

I find that story a bit hyperbolic.

 

[Dinwar]

I find that story a bit hyperbolic.

I see what you did there.

And it's not hyperbole in the least. Got it corroborated by an independant source (a guy that got to listen to the phone call, at one of the Christmas parties).

A remarkable number of my family's stories are like that--people outside the family just don't believe it. But we don't make stuff up; we don't NEED to most of the time!

 

[Ladewig]

Maybe it was a very large room?

I was going to suggest a spherical foundation, but your joke is funnier.

 

[Dinwar]

I was going to suggest a spherical foundation, but your joke is funnier.

Engineers don't like it when you ask "How do you correct for the fact that your walls are going to be at different angles, since they're on slightly different positions on the Earth's surface and you're using a plumb bob?" It's like walking up stairs--as soon as they think about it, they can't do it.

 

[I Ratant]

By measuring with a micrometer/plumb bob, marking the uprights with chalk, and cutting with an ax.
I was observing a new building going up near here.. only two stories, but the bare structure looked askew.. leaning to the north.
Had to be an optical illusion, because the windows fit!