Merged No more algebra?
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Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
And that as they say is the rub, here you can refuse two retentions.
Congratulations on getting into a very difficult profession!AmandaM said:
And your story illustrates how education works best: the student has a REASON to know this stuff. Doesn't have to be a good reason, either. I took a jewelry-making class because frankly a girl asked me to. Still learned a lot. (When we started talking about annealing I started quietly laughing, and the prof got understandably annoyed--until I explained that I was studying geology and this all tied in EXACTLY with what we had learned a little while ago, and went on to mention some of the bits he'd left out to make the process simpler to understand.) Simply forcing a student to go through courses, though? Never works. It can't--until the student cares all they'll ever do is cram.
Not really--just do what I did, and pick a profession that requires you to know a bit about everything. And I mean EVERYTHING--knowledge of how to cut bricks is important. A paleontologist I work with saved his client a few $k by pointing out that a brick was wire-cut, meaning it wasn't old enough to be considered important.Hazel said:
Pretty much, yeah. And honestly, a lot of the people I know who go into such "low-brow" professions (not that anyone here is calling them that--it's just that I've heard them described as such) take that view. The richest guy in the town I grew up in started out as a garbage man, on the premise that it doesn't matter what the economy does, everyone has to get rid of trash. Given his income tax bracket, I'd say he got that one entirely correct! This idea is one reason my wedding band is stainless steel.
Good for you. I did go on to college - had to work my own way all the way -but it was worth it. And I understand that burning curiosity in everything that comes along. May it never die.
Parents should not be commanding their children's careers. Suggesting, yes; forcing, no. I had a sixth grade student whose father was a lawyer and determined that his son also be a lawyer. The boy was constantly fretting that the didn't want to be a lawyer. I mentioned his other talents to his mother. Her reply: "He's going to be a lawyer whether he likes it or not." I wonder what he is doing today.
/applause.
And the more bookshelves you have to have in your house.
You know about that?
My parents never openly fought my goal to be a paleontologist, but they certainly thought it was weird and put no small pressure on me to find a different career path. It wasn't an ultimatum, because hey, I was getting good grades and until I went to college it didn't really matter, but it was enough that when I got my first paycheck as a paleontologist I made a copy of the check, framed it, and gave it to my dad for Christmas just to show that yeah, I made it.
Almo
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If we stop teaching children how to think, we are lost.
I Ratant
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Wuglife
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Algebra for many students is a very artificial requirement.
There is no need to use algebra in an average life of a non-scientist/mathematician/mathematics professor. Many forms of employment do not require algebra, such as being a translator, reporter, salesman...a lot of my family members are surgeons, and I'm pretty sure they don't recall offhand that x to the power of negative n equals n over x to the power of n.
Some people really suck at algebra, and many students only learn how to do it "on paper", without even understanding how to actually apply what they've learned to real situations or what they are even doing when they move the numbers around to get the "right" answer--some of them don't even understand why the answer is right.
For the record, I suck at algebra. I just passed basic algebra in college as a remedial class recently. I had taken basic algebra about three times, failing each one before finally managing to scramble a B.
There is no need to use algebra in an average life of a non-scientist/mathematician/mathematics professor. Many forms of employment do not require algebra, such as being a translator, reporter, salesman...a lot of my family members are surgeons, and I'm pretty sure they don't recall offhand that x to the power of negative n equals n over x to the power of n.
Some people really suck at algebra, and many students only learn how to do it "on paper", without even understanding how to actually apply what they've learned to real situations or what they are even doing when they move the numbers around to get the "right" answer--some of them don't even understand why the answer is right.
For the record, I suck at algebra. I just passed basic algebra in college as a remedial class recently. I had taken basic algebra about three times, failing each one before finally managing to scramble a B.
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Wuglife
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I think basic logic and the concept of simple syllogisms (which is very dated, I know, but easy for anyone to understand) are far more important than algebra. If everyone understood algebra, politicians could still lie their way into office. If everyone understood logical consistency and reacted with open disapproval when leaders violated that principle, I bet things in this world would be a lot different.
Algebra has very few practical applications for average people. I don't understand why learning algebra is any more important for a student who has no intention of using it than learning to be a great chess player.
A backhoe operator would benefit from knowing basic algebra. "I have X gallons of fuel. I burn Y gallons/hour. When do I need to refuel?" Algebra is one of those fields that you can get by without, but if you DO understand it it makes life much, much easier, by giving you a way to organize your thoughts.Wuglife said:
You don't even need to do it quantitatively. There are equations that I've frankly never solved--I don't NEED to. I can look at the equation, and because I understand algebra I can figure out what it's saying, then use that however I want. Really useful for some of the unsolvable equations in hydrology.
This all illustrates a fundamental flaw in how we teach math. We teach it as if it's a set of rules and systems and equations, and it's NOT. Math, for everyone other than mathematicians, is a language. A very precise language, with far strictre rules than we're used to, but a language none the less. Algebra is the grammer of that language. To say that a person can get by without algebra is like saying they can get by without knowing how to write properly--sure, they CAN, but they're handicapped, and becoming increasingly more so as technology infiltrates our world. Sure, people don't need to use math in their day-to-day lives--but being able to do so makes life much easier. Take, for example, your statement about politicians. Sure, they may still get into office--but they'd have to be more careful about what they lied about. And the timeshare business would go under in a heartbeat.
Wuglife
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Knowing historical events is worthwhile for those who enjoy history, or who are going to be involved in employment that requires knowledge of history.
For many people, requiring them to learn history if they have no aptitude for memorizing dates or understanding the significance of events and no actual pressing reason to do so is going to end up keeping them from getting educated at something they actually do have aptitude for.
History classes by and large are also factually inaccurate and heavily censored, skipping "ugly" aspects of the history of the country they are taught in. This has happened multiple times in countries such as the USA, Canada, Japan, and others. That isn't the fault of history itself obviously but it is a real problem.
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Wuglife
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That problem can be easily solved with arithmetic.
If you have 5 gallons of fuel and you burn 1 gallon per hour, it is obvious that the fuel will last five hours. Nobody needs to learn how to find the slope of a line or how to divide exponents to do this problem.
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Wuglife
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Actually, I have to say that thinking of mathematics as a language helped me avoid flunking algebra 1 two terms back, so I think on this matter I more or less agree with you.
Um....you don't work with backhoes, do you?Wuglife said:
By OSHA regulations they DO need to know how to find the slope of a line--it depends on the soil they're working in, but it's generally a 2:1 to a 4:1 slope (with ingress/egress every 20') when they dig a hole more than 4' bgs. So that one's kinda important as well. (ETA: I should also point out that no, they don't have jigs to check with--they measure how wide the hole is and how deep, then plug it into the equation. Usually just before the inspector gets there.) Or, take my grandfather. He didn't take algebra. He worked as a machinist for decades; didn't need it. Until someone had him make a part he didn't have a template for. Before he started he taught himself trig, so he could figure out where to put everything. When he was done no one knew how to test the part, other than to put it into the machine--none of them knew trig, so couldn't figure out if he'd done it right or not (I think there were a few small tweaks, but other than that it was good). It's a profession where no one, including the other machinists, thought that anything beyond arythmatic was necessary--yet it turned out to be the only way to do the job.
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Wuglife
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Um....you don't work with backhoes, do you?
To be honest I don't even know what a backhoe is. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that isn't necessary to know for most people either. It still doesn't change how knowing the formula for line slopes isn't necessary to know how long a tank of fuel will last.
So should all machinists be required to learn trig because a few of them needed it at one point?
I'm sure there are many machinists who do not have the time, or aptitude, or desire needed to learn trig and would have been stuck at Burger King (or just unemployed) if knowing trig were a requirement to be a machinist.
There could just as easily be a requirement for machinists to know French, because some machinists were in a particular situation that required french-speaking. I don't think speaking French should be a requirement to be a machinist.
Some people have different aptitudes than others. To require people study things that they very probably will never use that they are very poor at, holding the study of what they actually want to learn hostage (I am being a little tongue in cheek here) doesn't seem like the right way to go about it.
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This is unsurprising. Corporate Earth does not want people who understand, they want droids who follow directions without thinking, until the day that robots suffice, in which case they will want us to starve. Who will buy their useless products then, I do not know.
The religious right also loves this, because it allows them to sell their knowingly dishonest, intentionally misleading lies about how the Earth was created, etc, without having people go "Oi? WHAT?"
Wuglife
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Can you actually demonstrate that not understanding algebra allows one to believe in creationism?
I am horrible at algebra. I have only a very simple understanding of the basics, and algebra nearly kept me from finishing college (i'm still in college, but I finished basic algebra--still need more math credits to finish though).
I don't believe in creationism. No exponents need be divided or coin problems solved to realise the claims of the "religious right" are logically impossible.
I learned more about how "The Corporations" and the RR screw people over by learning the concept of logical consistency and the Barbra syllogism--not in algebra classs.
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Are you also going to argue that car inssurance is worthless? It's the same reasoning.Wuglife said:
You're getting bogged down in the details, and missing the fact that I'm merely using them to illustrate a point: math is USEFUL. It DOES have real-world applications. The fact that most people don't see it isn't an argument against that; it's more a sign of the necessity to teach math differently than anything else. There are wildly divergent situations where knowledge of basic algebra can be of tremendous benifit--IF you understand basic algebra. What you're arguing is that we must take away that tool, because you don't see any use for it right now. I'm arguing that that's because you're not looking.
Again, math is a language. And like we expect our children to learn to use their native language properly, we should expect them to learn to use math properly. If we did that, our children would find as many uses for math as, say, children in the USA find for English.
True. However, I don't see you using this to argue that because some students have a hard time learning English we should simply abandon teaching that subject.