Nightline Debate: Does Satan Exist?

[TimCallahan]

The Temptation in the Wilderness, particularly as recorded in the Gospel of Mark, has strong shamanic associations and seems to be based on Hebrew scriptures dealing with Elijah and Moses, thus indicating the episode was fictional.

As to the shamanic associations, among the Tamang people of Nepal the shamanic initiate is supposedly afflicted by spirits who possess him and drive him into solitude. Looking at the key words of Mk. 1:12, 13 in the original Greek we find a strong parallel:

The Spirit (Gr. pneuma) immediately drove (Gr. ekballo, "eject," literally, "throw out") him out into the wilderness (eremos, havng to do with loneliness or solitude). And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and angels ministered to him.

The Old Testament parallel on which the episode was based is found in 1 Kings. 19:8:

And he [Elijah] arose and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb, the mount of God.

The episode of Elijah is itself a reference back to Moses (Exodus 24:18):

And Moses entered the cloud, and went up on the mountain forty days and forty nights.

Another indication the episode is fictional is the omniscient presence of the author. Jesus was supposedly alone in the wilderness being tempted. So how did the author of Mark know about it? One way would be through divine inspiration, which means we have to accept the divine inspiration of a narrative, which itself is supposed to prove the divinity of Jesus, meaning we indulge in circular reasoning. The only other way Mark could have known of this episode is that Jesus told him or someone else about it, making the whole thing an unsubstantiated and unprovable claim.

Again, do either of you, Ethnikos or Kathy, have any testable evidence of demonic attack or spiritual warfare?

 

[Marduk]

ah Kathy, perhaps you can answer a question for me,

In Mesopotamian languages there are two words
Sa - Opposed/Equal
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e4600.html
An - God/Heaven
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e347.html

as you can see from the links these two words were being used from 3000bce by a culture who's main opponent to their God was described as a "great red serpent"

The jews picked up this phrase SA.AN while in exile during the Babylonian diaspora, in fact its well known that Babylon was the source for many stories that later appear in the Bible, from Genesis to the flood via the tower of Babel and beyond. Also
according to Rabbi Simeon ben Lakish of Tiberias (230–270 AD), all the specific names for the angels were brought back by the Jews from Babylon.

so it would seem then that SA.AN meaning "opposed" or "equal to god" was first devised by the Sumerians where it was a phrase used as a description for people outside the state religion, such as the Jews who would have heard themselves referenced by that phrase constantly. That the phrase was in use for 2500 years or more is beyond doubt, heres the question

As this is the earliest evidence for the existence of satan before the existence of Judaism, aren't you in the slightest bit interested in how the Babylonians defeated their version of Satan, which is the source and not the much later reacted Jewish derivation ?

 

[Elizabeth I]

Some Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah, but we are still in the time of gentiles being saved so unfortunately it does seem many Jews are still blind to the truth about Jesus. As I understand it more Jews will come to faith in Christ through the great tribulation which is surely getting closer each day.

...and here we are back again. So is God a liar? Because he made a covenant with the Jews, but you seem to be saying that he broke that covenant when he sent Jesus to earth. So then God lied to the Jews when he made that covenant, and if God is a liar, how can you trust anything he says?

Or, if God first made the covenant with the Jews, then changed his mind when he sent Jesus, how do you know that he won't change his mind again someday and you'll find yourself out in the cold? What if he says, "Oops, I was wrong, it is the Jews after all"? Or, "Haha, guess what, I really am Allah"?

If he changed his mind once, he could do it again, any day now.

I have asked you these questions before, in several other threads, and you have always ignored them. What is your answer? Is God a liar, or will he just change his mind on you?

 

[Marduk]

"Haha, guess what, I really am Allah"?

its true, he really is

 

[Ethnikos]

...and here we are back again. So is God a liar? Because he made a covenant with the Jews, but you seem to be saying that he broke that covenant when he sent Jesus to earth.

If he changed his mind once, he could do it again, any day now.

The covenants, in my way of thinking, are about a theocracy. Adam was supposed to rule the earth as the representative of mankind and the priest and prophet of God. Noah, after the flood, took that position by default. He passed the birthright for it to Shem. Abraham was the direct descendant, oldest son to oldest son, from Shem. Moses resurrected the concept, after it got lost in Egypt. Jesus was the next person to take up the mantle of being the High Priest/King of Israel.
It is not so much the change in God, as it is in who represents God to us. Jesus is the ultimate representative of God because his existence came from what would have been the image of God in heaven. He is also the ultimate representative for mankind before God, and was taken to Heaven to be priest for us in the true Temple. So, the government is sure, in a place where things do not wear out.

 

[Ethnikos]

Again, do either of you, Ethnikos or Kathy, have any testable evidence of demonic attack or spiritual warfare?

I don't know what is testable.
There are things that happen that are of demonic origin, that I have noticed.
A couple of my old friends are dead who were under attack by demons. One I talked to the night he died. He told me he thought he was beyond salvation. I explained to him how he was not. He was very surprised and asked me questions about it and I told him the Gospel. Two hours later he was dead. He may have been taken while he was in a condition of grace. I haven't ever thought about it like this before, but for all I know, the devil may have done him in because it would have messed up Satan's reputation, if he lost one of his slaves, to Jesus. (these guys were in a popular band in the Inland Empire in California and were sponsored by a Satanic organization who liked their party spirit)
My other friend, Mark, used to stay at my house and his mother fixed up a building on the property for herself to live in. She holds me as partially responsible for her son being murdered because I moved and kind of left them to find other places to live. Where Mark wound up, the owner of the property ended up shooting him.
Mark was under attack from demons and one day I was with him in my car. I felt inspired to explain to him how to overcome it. Just when I got into the lecture, my horn started blowing. Might seem not too unusual but this horn not working caused me to have to stand before a judge to explain how I found it impossible to ever get to work. So here was this horn that had previously never worked, all of sudden would not stop working. I stopped and ended up getting under the car to pull the wire off. It would not let me pull it and was shocking me when I touched it. This is one of my strangest moments because the thing would move out of the way when I grabbed for it. I was exasperated over the experience and so shaken by it that I never got back to the earlier conversation. (the horn never worked again after that for the next year I owned the car, just that once)
Bad things happened after that and I packed up and moved rather quickly. I feel like if I had stuck around and tried to help him out, he would be alive today. This is not some sort of story that makes me look good. I was tortured mentally over what happened because I could never say honestly that I knew I had done the right thing to get the hell out of California. But the purpose of the story is to show that demons are real and people die from them. The devil did not pull the trigger but it did make the man do it. He felt so bad about it that three years later, he turned himself in for doing it. The other guy died when he crashed the car he was driving. He was maybe pushed by the devil to keep going when he should have pulled over and taken a nap, which would have saved his life, I don't know.

 

[Marduk]

you need to wake up my friend, the devil was invented by Judaism after 500bce as a way of enforcing religious control over a newly freed populace. An idea they got from the babylonians whose culture shows the evolution of such a figure from its original form of a sea monster opposed to their "one" God.

These elements of your story you claim are evidence of demonic attack are much more likely to be that way solely because you believe in demons, in essence it is your belief that is making it real. If your religion didn't have demons what would you have thought was causing it ?

fairies ?
evil goblins ?
Obama ?


really stop torturing yourself, if you hadn't existed things would still have happened exactly the same way, you really are not that important to the grand scheme of things, none of us are

 

[ExMinister]

Ethnikos, to phrase the question a little differently, how is that you can tell that someone is under the attack of demons? How do you personally tell the difference between people who are under demonic attack and people who are just making bad choices or having bad luck?

 

[Harpyja]

You burned the books!? What's wrong with you? Couldn't you have just donated them to a library or nursing home or something? KK is a book burner, just one more reason to dislike her.

KK doesn't seem to realize that by her burning books, she is actually (indirectly) causing the author to gain a slight bit of profit. Instead of taking out her old copies at a local library or nursing home, some sap's going to go buy one from a bookstore, thus rerouting some money his way. Same thing that occurred with J. K. Rowling's books until some sense prevailed.

I believe that burning books did have some merit at some time, when writing a book was done by hand and books were infinitely more valuable. Burning a book then meant that the body of work was gone. Nowadays, books can be printed cheaply in comparison and can be preserved through the internet, even if the book itself was subject to some worldwide ban.

 

[Marduk]

I believe that burning books did have some merit at some time.

I'm thinking that perhaps "merit" is the wrong word

 

[TimCallahan]

My other friend, Mark, used to stay at my house and his mother fixed up a building on the property for herself to live in. She holds me as partially responsible for her son being murdered because I moved and kind of left them to find other places to live. Where Mark wound up, the owner of the property ended up shooting him.
Mark was under attack from demons and one day I was with him in my car. I felt inspired to explain to him how to overcome it. Just when I got into the lecture, my horn started blowing. Might seem not too unusual but this horn not working caused me to have to stand before a judge to explain how I found it impossible to ever get to work. So here was this horn that had previously never worked, all of sudden would not stop working. I stopped and ended up getting under the car to pull the wire off. It would not let me pull it and was shocking me when I touched it. This is one of my strangest moments because the thing would move out of the way when I grabbed for it. I was exasperated over the experience and so shaken by it that I never got back to the earlier conversation. (the horn never worked again after that for the next year I owned the car, just that once)
Bad things happened after that and I packed up and moved rather quickly. I feel like if I had stuck around and tried to help him out, he would be alive today. . . .

The devil did not pull the trigger but it did make the man do it. He felt so bad about it that three years later, he turned himself in for doing it. The other guy died when he crashed the car he was driving. He was maybe pushed by the devil to keep going when he should have pulled over and taken a nap, which would have saved his life, I don't know.

Okay, so what we have here are two friends of yours who died, one by being murdered, the other in a car crash, caused probably because he fell asleep at the wheel. I don't see any reason to believe Satan impelled the perpetrator to murder one of your friends, nor to blieve that Satan impelled your other friend to keep driving when he should have pulled off the road to take a nap.

The only thing out of the ordinary is a faulty horn, which you attribute to Satan. However a horn that works or doesn't work in an erratic manner doesn't strike me as Satanic. The fact that the wire shocked you when you tried to disconnect it sounds very thisworldly and reasonable. As to it moving out of the way when you tried to grab it, this may be nothing more than your own perception of what happened. Do we have any auto mechanics who can tell us why horns suddenly start honking?

It would appear that you are reading patterns into happenings that are, with the exception of the murder, accidental. In the case of the murder, you are imposing Satanic motive on an all too human act.

 

[Lrrr]

Seems to me fallen people do not need Satan to help them be evil. Don't you think God uses Satan to show us what we do not want to turn into?

So he keeps Satan around just to have him manipulate people into doing acts of evil? What about the victims of these acts? Do they somehow deserve to be harmed by someone God could easily stop but choses not to because he is (what?) testing the perpetrator? That's sick.

 

[Paulhoff]

Well I believe what Mark Driscol has to say and know it to be the absolute truth and what everyone needs to acknowledge and agree with.

As for the others I burned my Depak Chopra books when Jesus saved me. I use to be open to his way of thinking of spirituality but no longer, thanks be to God.

As for the others interviewed, my youtube errored so I will try to watch more later and comment then.

Paul

 

[Ethnikos]

My cousin did this to a Book he did not like. Books written under satanic influence deserve to be treated this way.
In this case, it was a Jehovah's Witness publication.
(This is a fake picture I made to illustrate the point)
Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.

 

[Ethnikos]

Ethnikos, to phrase the question a little differently, how is that you can tell that someone is under the attack of demons? How do you personally tell the difference between people who are under demonic attack and people who are just making bad choices or having bad luck?

One way that I can think of would be people doing things without being able to carry out what they would have planned on doing when they were attempting to exercise free will. Someone could imagine they are going to do some good thing, but in the carrying out of the thing, they find themselves doing something quite different. An act that started out to be something that would be helpful becomes instead, something harmful.
Watching these episodes working themselves out could make me conclude there are invisible forces at work that wreck things for the people involved. I can imagine these being conscious of what they are doing and having an intent. We can call these demons. What they really are may not be knowable to us but there is a common mythology that can be put to use to convey the idea of it to others.

 

[TimCallahan]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=216&pictureid=1335[/qimg]
Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.

So, what books would you burn?

 

[Ethnikos]

So, what books would you burn?

This was a story his brother in law told me. He was reading a JW version of the Bible and my cousin grabbed it and threw it in the burn barrel.
I thought KK's story was funny, burning Deepak Chopra's book.
Pretty mild, compared to burning a bible, even if it was a JW bible.
I think most books on religion are trash. A lot of how to be God, or God is inside you stuff that is just not true.
We do not naturally have God in us and no amount of wishing will change that. We are naturally the sons of Satan. God can transform us to a certain extent. First we have to recognize our sorry state and then have grace bestowed upon us through believing in the salvation that Christ worked for us. We will always need that.

 

[joobz]

This was a story his brother in law told me. He was reading a JW version of the Bible and my cousin grabbed it and threw it in the burn barrel.
I thought KK's story was funny, burning Deepak Chopra's book.
Pretty mild, compared to burning a bible, even if it was a JW bible.

why? they seem equally dumb atcs to me.

 

[joobz]

Burning books to keep them out of the hands of susceptible people is a good thing to do.

Burning books is a sign of a weak mind that fears learning.

 

[TimCallahan]

We do not naturally have God in us and no amount of wishing will change that. We are naturally the sons of Satan. God can transform us to a certain extent. First we have to recognize our sorry state and then have grace bestowed upon us through believing in the salvation that Christ worked for us. We will always need that.

We are naturally the sons of Satan? I thought our religion teaches that we are the creations of God, even if we are estranged from him as a result of the fall. See how this pernicious doctrine of Original Sin has twisted things? If you begin with the assumption that human beings are essentially evil, this allows church authorities to use all sorts of brutality and to abrogate all hman rights - all for our own good.