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Maybe its just cause its over the internet its hard to tell how exactly a person is sayin something but it came across to me as condescending through your choice of words. Either way, no hard feelings.

I think ill bow out of this thread (unless something needs to be addressed) as the point was just to give a brief introduction of who i am and what my views are and just to say hello to the fellow forum members.



Before you go to another thread, I thought I'd suggest that I have offered a good contact at FDNY that may be of value to you for getting confirmation from the source regarding WYC-7.

It is in the top of the 'For Scooby' thread here in the conspiracy section, first post, if that is helpful.

RAMS
 
Yes i am still on the fence on WTC 7. With regards to your statement that WTC 7 looks "nothing like" a controlled demolition. I respectfully disagree with you. I would think if you had to show people the video i posted earlier they would agree that WTC 7 is similar to the controlled demolition. I also would expect few people to go as far to say they look nothing alike in their collapse.

Here is the video in question : http://youtube.com/watch?v=6_czyNCNhDI

Once again - i would like to read the NIST final report on the collapse mechanism of WTC 7.

Respectfully, you didn't even respond to a single point I made in those posts I referenced. In what way do you disagree with my assessment that WTC7 looks nothing like a controlled demolition, in that there were no visible or audible systematic explosions taking out the support members just prior to the gravity-driven collapse?
 
I have to agree. The only real similarity between WTC7 collapse and a standard CD, is the way the building fell, from the bottom up, relatively symmetrical, and relatively fast.

I have seen no evidence of Detonation Charges, such as light flashes, or a series of explosions just prior to the collapse.

What I would like someone to show me, is another way that a 47 storey skyscraper should fall. Seems to me, the way it fell is the only way it could fall, regardless of the cause.

TAM:)
 
Hi HyperViolet, and welcome to the forum.

I'm not going to get too stuck into this because it seems others have it well covered. I just want to make a few points and raise some questions for your consideration.

1. You have cited a number of times the "unanswered questions" of family members of victims as a primary motivator for a new investigation. Having read through these questions myself, I feel virtually all of them have been adequately answered, and those that have not it is generally fairly obvious why they have not been answered (questions of the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" nature, or questions that demand sensitive classified information). It is my opinion, based on these questions and the opinions of the Jersey Girls in 9/11:Press For Truth that the family members of victims simply don't like the answers they received.

I would ask of you, which particular questions do you feel are most telling? Perhaps we can aide you in understanding that these questions have already been answered.

2. As Hey Leroy excellently pointed out, controlled demolitions are very seldom symmetrical. Indeed, in controlled demolitions it is very common for an entire section of the building, from basement to roof, to be collapsed before the section immediately next to it.

3. In regards to Pakistan and the funding question. I believe this may be the most complex aspect of 9/11. The known facts are and were that Al Qaeda carried out the attacks, and Al Qaeda were guests of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Close neighbours of Afghanistan - Pakistan - have a government that wants to be more west-friendly, ruling a population that includes a very strong pro-Al Qaeda support base.

It is a simple conclusion that without the support of Pakistan, there was no way whatsoever that the US could take down Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. When members of Al Qaeda escaped from Tora Bora into Pakistan itself, the support of the Pakistani government became even more vital. Were the US to lose this support, Al Qaeda would have found themselves a new supportive host. A host with nuclear weapons.

It's important to really understand all of the above, and understand just how precarious this entire situation is. Corruption and support of Al Qaeda is rampant in the Pakistani government. If the US makes one false step with their unstable ally they could find themselves facing a terrorist organisation that has somehow just accquired a nuclear weapon.

So, when imagining the 9/11 investigators looking into funding, you have to appreciate that no one is going to be wanting to dig too deep into Pakistan.

Finally, the real fact is, as the Commission stated, the funding is somewhat irrelevant. Osama Bin Laden is a multi-millionaire in his own right, Al Qaeda has significant appeal across the Muslim world, and they have a number of well-established funding networks. Money was never a problem for Al Qaeda. The September 11 Attacks did not cost a lot of money. Thus determining who funded the operation is of little value, as cutting off this funding will not prevent Al Qaeda getting funding from elsewhere.

To my opinion, the priority is, and must be, the destruction of Al Qaeda. Investigations come secondary to this. An investigation of Pakistani involvement in 9/11 funding would help very little with understanding how the attacks were carried out, but could significantly impair operations to destroy Al Qaeda. In worst case scenario, such investigations could result in a strengthening of Al Qaeda's position and the possibility of nuclear armament.

We must consider something about 9/11. 9/11 was the first time that Islamic Terrorists inflicted large-scale death on American civilian populations. Prior to this attacks had been hostage scenarios, or against American military forces, or had resulted in very minor levels of death.

9/11 revealed that Al Qaeda were truely ready, willing, and capable of causing wanton slaughter on a massive scale. Before 9/11, it was reasonable to assume that terrorists might hesitate to use a nuclear weapon on a civilian population. After 9/11 it became a given that, were Al Qaeda to get their hands on a nuclear weapon, they would use it.

Thus, at the extreme end of the worst case scenario, it became a matter of choosing between Investigating if corrupt Pakistani officials gave Al Qaeda a meagre sum of money, or preventing a nuclear terrorist attack in an American city.

Really, given these scenarios, there's no choice to be made.

-Gumboot
 
It was this part of your post that caught my attention, because I find that the evolution vs creationism/ID debate is almost identical to the 9/11 conspiracy debate.

The '9/11 conspiracies' are just like creationism and ID.

... and VespaGuy expanded on his point.
Excellent, excellent post. Well laid out.
 
Please read this essay on the characteristics of various explosives and tell us which would be most suitable to survive the fires:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65247

Please read this and tell us when explosives could've been laid and wired together:

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=1233

Also, did you even watch the three videos I linked to in the three minutes between our posts?

I had watched video number 1 at point of posting. Assuming the other 2 would be of the same high quality (which they were) i thanked you as this was the kind of footage i was interested in looking at. Why do you ask?
 
Hi HyperViolet, and welcome to the forum.

I'm not going to get too stuck into this because it seems others have it well covered. I just want to make a few points and raise some questions for your consideration.

1. You have cited a number of times the "unanswered questions" of family members of victims as a primary motivator for a new investigation. Having read through these questions myself, I feel virtually all of them have been adequately answered, and those that have not it is generally fairly obvious why they have not been answered (questions of the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" nature, or questions that demand sensitive classified information). It is my opinion, based on these questions and the opinions of the Jersey Girls in 9/11:Press For Truth that the family members of victims simply don't like the answers they received.

I would ask of you, which particular questions do you feel are most telling? Perhaps we can aide you in understanding that these questions have already been answered.

2. As Hey Leroy excellently pointed out, controlled demolitions are very seldom symmetrical. Indeed, in controlled demolitions it is very common for an entire section of the building, from basement to roof, to be collapsed before the section immediately next to it.

3. In regards to Pakistan and the funding question. I believe this may be the most complex aspect of 9/11. The known facts are and were that Al Qaeda carried out the attacks, and Al Qaeda were guests of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Close neighbours of Afghanistan - Pakistan - have a government that wants to be more west-friendly, ruling a population that includes a very strong pro-Al Qaeda support base.

It is a simple conclusion that without the support of Pakistan, there was no way whatsoever that the US could take down Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. When members of Al Qaeda escaped from Tora Bora into Pakistan itself, the support of the Pakistani government became even more vital. Were the US to lose this support, Al Qaeda would have found themselves a new supportive host. A host with nuclear weapons.

It's important to really understand all of the above, and understand just how precarious this entire situation is. Corruption and support of Al Qaeda is rampant in the Pakistani government. If the US makes one false step with their unstable ally they could find themselves facing a terrorist organisation that has somehow just accquired a nuclear weapon.

So, when imagining the 9/11 investigators looking into funding, you have to appreciate that no one is going to be wanting to dig too deep into Pakistan.

Finally, the real fact is, as the Commission stated, the funding is somewhat irrelevant. Osama Bin Laden is a multi-millionaire in his own right, Al Qaeda has significant appeal across the Muslim world, and they have a number of well-established funding networks. Money was never a problem for Al Qaeda. The September 11 Attacks did not cost a lot of money. Thus determining who funded the operation is of little value, as cutting off this funding will not prevent Al Qaeda getting funding from elsewhere.

To my opinion, the priority is, and must be, the destruction of Al Qaeda. Investigations come secondary to this. An investigation of Pakistani involvement in 9/11 funding would help very little with understanding how the attacks were carried out, but could significantly impair operations to destroy Al Qaeda. In worst case scenario, such investigations could result in a strengthening of Al Qaeda's position and the possibility of nuclear armament.

We must consider something about 9/11. 9/11 was the first time that Islamic Terrorists inflicted large-scale death on American civilian populations. Prior to this attacks had been hostage scenarios, or against American military forces, or had resulted in very minor levels of death.

9/11 revealed that Al Qaeda were truely ready, willing, and capable of causing wanton slaughter on a massive scale. Before 9/11, it was reasonable to assume that terrorists might hesitate to use a nuclear weapon on a civilian population. After 9/11 it became a given that, were Al Qaeda to get their hands on a nuclear weapon, they would use it.

Thus, at the extreme end of the worst case scenario, it became a matter of choosing between Investigating if corrupt Pakistani officials gave Al Qaeda a meagre sum of money, or preventing a nuclear terrorist attack in an American city.

Really, given these scenarios, there's no choice to be made.

-Gumboot

Excellent summary.

Nominated.

You probably won't win for this one but but it's always nice to be recognized...:D
 
Respectfully, you didn't even respond to a single point I made in those posts I referenced. In what way do you disagree with my assessment that WTC7 looks nothing like a controlled demolition, in that there were no visible or audible systematic explosions taking out the support members just prior to the gravity-driven collapse?
Hey Mortimer, sorry for the late reply.
Well i disagree in the sense that i have seen footage of controlled demolition squibs going off after the collapse has initiated. Not just before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FzxcKoOVUg
As the buildings are fallin you can still see them on parts of the buildings. This is similar in WTC 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuWumK4pnoA or more closely here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJtlgZXb0Mo
Now, with regards to WTC 7, it could just be air pressure. I dont' know what to believe yet.

Also on my googling for that video i came across this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qWFVzBdM5s
Has this been debunked, before? According to this sound can be heard before the collapse starts.
 
Hyper, I am NOT a WTC7 expert so take this as just one person's opinion.

I have two immediate reactions:

First, the "explosions" don't sound like explosions to me. It sounds like wind noise in the mike. Contrast the sounds to video and sound of a known CD. There are many explosions which are very, very sharp. The "explosions" in that video sound like longer duration, low rumbles. This is not what a CD sounds like.

Secondly, notice that you can hear two of the "explosions" going off AFTER the building is down. Huh?

ETA: WildCat beat me to the wind explanation.
 
So these thugs are calling you out for posting too many times your first day? Bunch of paranoids. ;)

I think I had that many posts my first day too, just asking questions, and then asking what JAQing off is, and inquiring what a sock puppet is, and who P'doh is. It gets real old; every new member goes through it.

I didn't "go through it"

What makes me so dang special.

Where is my "trial by fire?"

I think it has to do more with how one approaches. 'Specially on messageboards. I work my way into a new board by "contributing to threads" instead of "creating new threads." New threads get more attention. Personally, don't really want or need anymore attention per say, but occasionally feel compelled to give my views if the situation presents itself. It seems less abrupt that way. Jus' a little messageboard rule of thumb, for me anyway.
 
Also on my googling for that video i came across this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qWFVzBdM5s
Has this been debunked, before? According to this sound can be heard before the collapse starts.


WildCat and SezMe are spot on. Wind.

Also, you may come across other vidoes of "explosions". Of the ones I have seen, almost all of them were fake. The sound had either been completely added, or the audio had been altered.

As a filmmaker all of these videos were obviously fakes, and badly done ones.

One of them even uses a stock sound effect with an explosion in stereo, despite supposedly coming from a handycam!

-Gumboot
 
WildCat and SezMe are spot on. Wind.

Also, you may come across other vidoes of "explosions". Of the ones I have seen, almost all of them were fake. The sound had either been completely added, or the audio had been altered.

As a filmmaker all of these videos were obviously fakes, and badly done ones.

One of them even uses a stock sound effect with an explosion in stereo, despite supposedly coming from a handycam!

-Gumboot

Really? What videos are faked, gumboot?

Also about the wind point. This is a good possibility, however, im assuming the camera is distant from the building and would not expect the sound to be tthat clear cut either way.

Thanks!
 
Really? What videos are faked, gumboot?

Also about the wind point. This is a good possibility



It's not a possibility. It's wind. I'd willingly stake my film degree on it.

A number of them are fake. There's one of the WTC collapses by Siegel that someone has amplified the wind noise to make "explosions".

Another of firemen at a phone booth with the added stero explosion supposedly of WTC7.

That sort of thing.

In a lot of cases, the reason I knew these were fake straight away was I'd seen the original videos without the explosions, so I know they had been added.

I think these are a case of CTers fabricating evidence. 9/11 was the most documented event in World History. And yet there's not a single video recording that captured a single explosion. That's a problem for Conspiracy Theorists. I think some of the more dishonest ones sought to address that problem, and the rest fell for it because they wanted to believe.

-Gumboot
 
So these thugs are calling you out for posting too many times your first day? Bunch of paranoids. ;)

I think I had that many posts my first day too, just asking questions, and then asking what JAQing off is, and inquiring what a sock puppet is, and who P'doh is. It gets real old; every new member goes through it.

Oh this is really sardonic, but too fun to pass up.

Gee, I didn't have that problem. But then, I didn't come in firing off a bunch of WAGs and accusations. :p
 
Yes i am still on the fence on WTC 7. With regards to your statement that WTC 7 looks "nothing like" a controlled demolition. I respectfully disagree with you. I would think if you had to show people the video i posted earlier they would agree that WTC 7 is similar to the controlled demolition. I also would expect few people to go as far to say they look nothing alike in their collapse.

Here is the video in question : http://youtube.com/watch?v=6_czyNCNhDI

Once again - i would like to read the NIST final report on the collapse mechanism of WTC 7.

I respect your waiting for the final NIST report on WTC 7.

Personally, I am a believer of sound. If you notice all the videos that draw clear visual similarities between WTC 7 and a building brought down with a controlled demolition you aren't hearing the raw sound footage.

So, I don't say: "they look nothing alike in their collapse"-- because they do.

They just don't sound anything alike in their collapse. Here is an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3zIv7LdZQ

I am merely making a comparison, as the Italian talk show did.
 
Hey Mortimer, sorry for the late reply.
Well i disagree in the sense that i have seen footage of controlled demolition squibs going off after the collapse has initiated. Not just before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FzxcKoOVUg
As the buildings are fallin you can still see them on parts of the buildings. This is similar in WTC 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuWumK4pnoA or more closely here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJtlgZXb0Mo
Now, with regards to WTC 7, it could just be air pressure. I dont' know what to believe yet.

Also on my googling for that video i came across this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qWFVzBdM5s
Has this been debunked, before? According to this sound can be heard before the collapse starts.

Hey, no problem. I appreciate that you are probably overwhelmed and any reply you can make is great.

However, the point I am trying to make is that what makes a CD a CD is what happens *before* the building starts to collapse. Because once it starts to collapse, the CD part of it is over, and gravity takes over. The CD part of a CD consists of systematic explosive charges going off all over the building to take out the support members. There is *no* visual, audial, or eyewitness evidence that there were any systematic explosive charges going off just prior to the building collapsing. No explosive charges, no CD.
 
Hey, no problem. I appreciate that you are probably overwhelmed and any reply you can make is great.

However, the point I am trying to make is that what makes a CD a CD is what happens *before* the building starts to collapse. Because once it starts to collapse, the CD part of it is over, and gravity takes over. The CD part of a CD consists of systematic explosive charges going off all over the building to take out the support members. There is *no* visual, audial, or eyewitness evidence that there were any systematic explosive charges going off just prior to the building collapsing. No explosive charges, no CD.



Unless they used super-nano-termite... :boxedin:

-Gumboot
 

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