Near death experiences

Slowvehicle said:
And yet, that same suite of symptoms that is claimed to be a result of being "dead-but-not-really" has been documented to be caused by other things, as well.
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Ketamine is so good at reproducing those effects it's being used for treating depression (in clinical trials, I heard).
 
Fudbucker said:
So many of the people who report NDE's have met the definition of clinically dead that semantically quibbling over the meaning of "near death" is ridiculous. When your heart stops beating, the only difference between you and a corpse is whether someone gets to you in time and the heroic measures used on you work or not. To claim that you're not "near death" when you're in cardiac arrest and the code blue team is racing to your room is absurd.
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It is not semantic quibbling because the argument is that the experience of being "near death" allows people to peer through some sort of door and see what death itself is. If I step out in front of a speeding bus I am "near death" too. But that is no more a way of peering into a hypothetical afterlife than having my heart stop for a few minutes. What people refer to as near-death experiences are typically periods of oxygen deprivation leading to unconscious or severely compromised consciousness. One can be in these states whether one is next going to die, or as is true of everyone who have spoken of them, is next returned to consciousness. The observations related by people who have been in these states is an accurate telling of what they experienced mentally in that state, but that state itself has no relationship to death or what death itself is like. Which is my point.

Yes, they may be "near death" if left untreated, but that is no more relevant than observing that they are also usually physically near a doctor or EMT at the same time- it doesn't provide them any special insight into the personal life of the MD or EMT.
 
Fudbucker said:
Good point.

There are several possibilities: they don't remember it, they didn't have an NDE, or they had an NDE but don't want to report it. Since the whole NDE phenomenon revolves around anecdotes, the reason why the occurrence and severity of NDE's differ so much is going to be really hard to pin down.
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Certainly, the topic is exceedingly complicated when talking about the brain — the cause and effect is quite simple for a heart attack because the processes involved are simple. The processes of the brain are not. That's not to say that we don't have any facts or we haven't yet figured out any brain-cause-and-effect; there could be other factors than anoxia which could cause an NDE but I believe it's correct to say that it is a primary cause and warrants more research.
 
Giordano said:
It is not semantic quibbling because the argument is that the experience of being "near death" allows people to peer through some sort of door and see what death itself is.
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I'm not making that argument. I'm pointing out that this phenomenon occurs in many people who are clinically dead, and claiming clinically dead people aren't "near death" is about as silly as the post that started this thread. I don't care what it "allows" people to claim, but the argument that NDE's are a misnomer because they don't happen to people near death is laughable. When someone is in cardiac arrest, and the ambulance is racing to get to them in time, is that because they're near death or not near death?

If I step out in front of a speeding bus I am "near death" too. But that is no more a way of peering into a hypothetical afterlife than having my heart stop for a few minutes.
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Someone who's in cardiac arrest is dying. Someone who steps in front of a speeding bus isn't dying. After they get hit by the bus, they may or may not also be dying, but until they get hit, they're as alive as anyone else. Not so when your heart stops.

What people refer to as near-death experiences are typically periods of oxygen deprivation leading to unconscious or severely compromised consciousness.
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It's typically when someone's heart stops, and they're not breathing, which is called "clinically dead". If you think someone who is clinically dead and in the middle of whatever dying process you have in mind isn't "near death", I don't know what to tell you.

One can be in these states whether one is next going to die, or as is true of everyone who have spoken of them, is next returned to consciousness. The observations related by people who have been in these states is an accurate telling of what they experienced mentally in that state, but that state itself has no relationship to death or what death itself is like.
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We don't know if it's an accurate telling of what they experienced in "that state", because we're still not sure when an NDE happens. Is it before cardiac arrest? In the few seconds after cardiac arrest before brain function flatlines? Minutes after cardiac arrest? After resuscitation? Pinning down the timeframe is where a lot of the research is at.

Also, if "death itself" (i.e., an afterlife) is like an NDE, then your claim that an NDE has no relationship to death itself is false. If, after you die, your existence morphs into something exactly like an NDE, then an NDE would have a strong relationship to death itself. Is that what happens after we die? Who knows.

Yes, they may be "near death" if left untreated, but that is no more relevant than observing that they are also usually physically near a doctor or EMT at the same time- it doesn't provide them any special insight into the personal life of the MD or EMT.
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They're "near death" when they're in cardiac arrest, whether they're treated or not. There is no guarantee that treatment is going to bring you back from clinical death. I don't understand your point about "special insight".
 
slipknot0129 said:
Life is perfect now, it will be even better when you die.
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If the thought of a near death experience makes you fear death less, then fine, but you should probably be warned that it does not always happen, and that when it's over you'll be dead.

If life is perfect now, then it cannot, by definition, be better. That's what "perfect" means. If life is not death, then life cannot be better after you're dead either, by definition. Life and death are mutually exclusive. Near death is not death. A miss is as good as a mile. The only near death experiences we know are from people who didn't finish the job.
 
bruto said:
If the thought of a near death experience makes you fear death less, then fine, but you should probably be warned that it does not always happen, and that when it's over you'll be dead.

If life is perfect now, then it cannot, by definition, be better. That's what "perfect" means. If life is not death, then life cannot be better after you're dead either, by definition. Life and death are mutually exclusive. Near death is not death. A miss is as good as a mile. The only near death experiences we know are from people who didn't finish the job.
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Life is perfection. God made no mistakes. Near death experiences are what death will be like.
 
Originally Posted by slipknot
Life is perfection. God made no mistakes. Near death experiences are what death will be like.
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager
You are wrong
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slipknot0129 said:
Nope.
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Do you seriously think you are convincing anyone here with this empty repetitive posting slipknot?

It may seem a pain in the arse to you, but the majority of those posting here, like to see some evidence presented and an argument made.
 
Argumemnon said:
Since you're not ever going to provide evidence for your claims, we will assume that you're wrong, having nothing else to work with.
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Why would you assume that? We deal with unevidenced claims all the time. One of my students told me his dad was going to jail. A teacher I know casually mentioned she's been to China. My administrator said he taught for awhile in Chicago. Should I assume these claims are wrong unless I'm provided with evidence?
 
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