Near death experiences

[JayUtah]

When I die the bartender at the end of the tunnel had better know the difference between an Aviation and a Blue Moon.

 

[John Jones]

Near death experiences take my fear of death away. They show that there is more to life. Life continues on. It's nothing but love on the other side.

NDEs show nothing about any afterlife. They show what people report after not dying. It's simple, really.

 

[John Jones]

People who experienced an N"D"E did not, in fact, die. Calling an N"D"E an example of what it will be like to be dead is like calling a prom date an example of what it will be like to be married...

That is so good!

 

[Fudbucker]

The key about "near-death" experiences is that people who experience them and live to tell of it have never died. They are not near-death experiences at all- they are near-unconcious experiences. Which create certain memories due to the physical effects on brain function of oxygen deprivation, etc.

At best "near-death" experiences might lessen your fear of dying, not of death. It is likely that if one falls into unconsciousness before dying one will have these illusions. But as to showing that life continues on after death (an odd phrasing, yes?)- absolute crap. That would require documentation that someone who had actually died (fully died, as in the Monty Python parrot sketch), and came back, could tell tales of "the other side."

So many of the people who report NDE's have met the definition of clinically dead that semantically quibbling over the meaning of "near death" is ridiculous. When your heart stops beating, the only difference between you and a corpse is whether someone gets to you in time and the heroic measures used on you work or not. To claim that you're not "near death" when you're in cardiac arrest and the code blue team is racing to your room is absurd.

 

[Hokulele]

So many of the people who report NDE's have met the definition of clinically dead that semantically quibbling over the meaning of "near death" is ridiculous. When your heart stops beating, the only difference between you and a corpse is whether someone gets to you in time and the heroic measures used on you work or not. To claim that you're not "near death" when you're in cardiac arrest and the code blue team is racing to your room is absurd.

But that still isn't, you know, dead.

 

[John Jones]

So many of the people who report NDE's have met the definition of clinically dead that semantically quibbling over the meaning of "near death" is ridiculous. [...]

A near-death experience is not death. Pretending that the two are indistinguishable is ridiculous.

I don't believe for a moment you expect to convince us otherwise.

 

[Fudbucker]

But that still isn't, you know, dead.

By what definition? Have clinically dead people been successfully resuscitated? Of course. There have been people fished out of cold water who were submerged for over an hour and were revived. Did they die? Under that definition, they did. They obviously didn't stay dead, but they were clinically dead:

"When rescuers finally pulled her from the water, 62 minutes after her mother's call, she was very cold and blue. She had no pulse and was not breathing. Her pupils were fixed and widely dilated, as they would be with severe brain damage or death. A monitor detected no heartbeat."
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/26/s...-and-a-miraculous-revival.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Hokulele]

By what definition? Have clinically dead people been successfully resuscitated? Of course. There have been people fished out of cold water who were submerged for over an hour and were revived. Did they die? Under that definition, they did. They obviously didn't stay dead, but they were clinically dead:

"When rescuers finally pulled her from the water, 62 minutes after her mother's call, she was very cold and blue. She had no pulse and was not breathing. Her pupils were fixed and widely dilated, as they would be with severe brain damage or death. A monitor detected no heartbeat."
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/26/s...-and-a-miraculous-revival.html?pagewanted=all

"Severe brain damage or death".

No, that is still near death, not dead.

This is a decent treatment of the differences between clinically dead, and ... dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death

"Death was historically believed to be an event that coincided with the onset of clinical death. It is now understood that death is a series of physical events, not a single one, and determination of permanent death is dependent on other factors beyond simple cessation of breathing and heartbeat."

 

[Fudbucker]

A near-death experience is not death. Pretending that the two are indistinguishable is ridiculous.

I don't believe for a moment you expect to convince us otherwise.

Of course, no one is claiming this. The point is, were many of the people who have reported NDE's near death? Yes, in fact, many met the clinical definition for dead, which necessitates that they were near-death at some point (that point being when cardiac arrest first happened). Did the NDE happen at the time they were clinically dead? Who knows.

 

[Fudbucker]

"Severe brain damage or death".

No, that is still near death, not dead.

This is a decent treatment of the differences between clinically dead, and ... dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death

"Death was historically believed to be an event that coincided with the onset of clinical death. It is now understood that death is a series of physical events, not a single one, and determination of permanent death is dependent on other factors beyond simple cessation of breathing and heartbeat."

You left out a few pertinent details:

"Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing, the two necessary criteria to sustain human and many other organisms' lives.[1] It occurs when the heart stops beating in a regular rhythm, a condition called cardiac arrest. The term is also sometimes used in resuscitation research."

"At the onset of clinical death, consciousness is lost within several seconds. Measurable brain activity stops within 20 to 40 seconds.[2] Irregular gasping may occur during this early time period, and is sometimes mistaken by rescuers as a sign that CPR is not necessary.[3] During clinical death, all tissues and organs in the body steadily accumulate a type of injury called ischemic injury."

...

"Clinical death that occurs unexpectedly is treated as a medical emergency. CPR is initiated. In a United States hospital, a Code Blue is declared and Advanced Cardiac Life Support procedures used to attempt to restart a normal heartbeat. This effort continues until either the heart is restarted, or a physician determines that continued efforts are useless and recovery is impossible. If this determination is made, the physician pronounces legal death and resuscitation efforts stop."

So yes, you can be clinically dead and successfully resuscitated.

 

[Loss Leader]

Near death experiences take my fear of death away. They show that there is more to life. Life continues on. It's nothing but love on the other side.

I very nearly died. My heart stopped for a full minute. I have the rhythm strip and everything. And I saw and heard absolutely nothing. It wasn't even black ... it was as though time itself simply ceased to exist.

So, that's my anecdote. Please set it against one of yours so that they cancel each other out.

 

[Fudbucker]

I very nearly died. My heart stopped for a full minute. I have the rhythm strip and everything. And I saw and heard absolutely nothing. It wasn't even black ... it was as though time itself simply ceased to exist.

So, that's my anecdote. Please set it against one of yours so that they cancel each other out.

Well, this seems to invalidate Argumemnon's claim:

We know that depriving brains of oxygen produces exactly these symtoms (having the impression of floating above your body, tunnel vision, lights, etc.)

Your brain was deprived of oxygen and you had none of these symptoms.

 

[The Norseman]

Well, this seems to invalidate Argumemnon's claim:



Your brain was deprived of oxygen and you had none of these symptoms.

He didn't say however, that everyone experiences it every time, now did he? So no, it does not invalidate his claim.

 

[Fudbucker]

He didn't say however, that everyone experiences it every time, now did he? So no, it does not invalidate his claim.

It was certainly implied. For example, if I switch a few words around...

We know that depriving brains of oxygen hearts of blood flow produces exactly these symtoms (having the impression of floating above your body, tunnel vision, lights, etc. heart attack).

Would you expect to experience a heart attack if blood flow to your heart was interrupted? Of course you would. I didn't have to say "everyone" in order for that claim to be understood that it's universal.

If anoxia was the cause of NDE's, we would expect people with anoxia to experience NDE's. Since this clearly doesn't happen all the time, there's more to the story than just anoxia.

 

[Fudbucker]

NDEs do not appear to have anything to do with actually being "near death". For example, people who are actually near death, say from a random gunshot, do not report having an NDE just before the the shot is fired. Shouldn't they have an NDE since, after all, they are on the brink of the after-life?

Slipknot's response would (or should) be that trauma (or perceived trauma) to the body seems to be a necessary, though not sufficient, condition for NDE's to occur.

Why this should be the case is another question. In your example, I would argue you're not near-death before the shot is fired because the bullet could have missed you. Near-death could occur only after being hit by the bullet.

 

[The Norseman]

It was certainly implied. For example, if I switch a few words around...

It's probably best to respond to what was actually said, though, rather than what you read into it.

Would you expect to experience a heart attack if blood flow to your heart was interrupted? Of course you would. I didn't have to say "everyone" in order for that claim to be understood that it's universal.

If anoxia was the cause of NDE's, we would expect people with anoxia to experience NDE's. Since this clearly doesn't happen all the time, there's more to the story than just anoxia.

A heart attack isn't a symptom, though. Chest pains, radiating down the arms, shortness of breath, dizziness, sweating, clammy skin… those are symptoms of a heart attack. And yet, we all know that not everyone who has a heart attack experiences these symptoms. Some people don't experience any at all.

Anyway, perhaps every single person who has an NDE (which is still pretty vague, unlike a heart attack) as a result of anoxia, but perhaps they don't remember it. That's a possibility, is it not? After all, everyone dreams, but many, like me, rarely remember them upon waking. I don't think that's the case, but it's a legitimate possibility.

 

[Fudbucker]

It's probably best to respond to what was actually said, though, rather than what you read into it.



A heart attack isn't a symptom, though. Chest pains, radiating down the arms, shortness of breath, dizziness, sweating, clammy skin… those are symptoms of a heart attack. And yet, we all know that not everyone who has a heart attack experiences these symptoms. Some people don't experience any at all.

Good point.

Anyway, perhaps every single person who has an NDE (which is still pretty vague, unlike a heart attack) as a result of anoxia, but perhaps they don't remember it. That's a possibility, is it not? After all, everyone dreams, but many, like me, rarely remember them upon waking. I don't think that's the case, but it's a legitimate possibility.

There are several possibilities: they don't remember it, they didn't have an NDE, or they had an NDE but don't want to report it. Since the whole NDE phenomenon revolves around anecdotes, the reason why the occurrence and severity of NDE's differ so much is going to be really hard to pin down.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

This forum is really easy to troll. Say something unsubstantiated and sit back. When the thread dies down, repeat your claim and people will respond. No need to say anything substantial, no need to devise a clever gotcha, no need to play a character, no need to engage or rile up the other posters.
Just keep ramming your head against that button, like a pigeon asking for a seed.
Even as far as trolling goes, it's artless and boring.

 

[Belz...]

It was certainly implied.

No, it certainly isn't, and you playing around with the sentences doesn't support your impression.

For instance, we know that getting hit on the head produces concussions. Not always, but it does.

The point is that we have alternate interpretations to NDEs that don't require a change to the laws of physics.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Of course, no one is claiming this. The point is, were many of the people who have reported NDE's near death? Yes, in fact, many met the clinical definition for dead, which necessitates that they were near-death at some point (that point being when cardiac arrest first happened). Did the NDE happen at the time they were clinically dead? Who knows.

And yet, that same suite of symptoms that is claimed to be a result of being "dead-but-not-really" has been documented to be caused by other things, as well.