Nazi Master Race Breeding Program using "Aryan" Studs

Budly said:
...snip...

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
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That is quite true, at first people ridiculed those people that were telling the world of the systematic exterminations the Germans were implementing, then there was harsh opposition to accepting this idea and today we are in the final phase when it has been accepted as self-evident.
 
After further review, this thread has been restored and placed in the most appropriate subforum. This is a very controversial issue, so please keep it civil.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
I was watching "World at War" and they had a section on the proper aryan men mating with proper aryan women. They showed the babies. Why would they lie? I mean if your able to murder innocent "inferior" people why not breed "superior" people?

Observing the offspring of these unions after they grew up they looked pretty unremarkable to me.
 
Horatius said:
So, Budly, honest question time: Did you really think that no one here would bother to look at the post you were denigrating, and follow the provided links, to find out that the poster said nothing that was anything like what you claimed they said?

Did you really think that?

You yourself, earlier in this thread, chastised us for allegedly relying on strawman versions of your own arguments, and now, you've gone ahead and presented a strawman version of ddt's post. Why would you do that?

Seriously, did you really think that you'd get away with that? Did you really, actually, honestly, believe that we are that stupid and/or incurious?

Do you still think that?


Seriously.
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So, even after being moved out of the CT ghetto, Budly still hasn't answered my question. Let's face it, this question is far more interesting than reviewing the already established facts of this historical event.
 
It must be true, I saw it on TV they were trying to clone little Hitlers

Not Mozart, Doctor.

Not Picasso.

Not a genius who would

enrich the world...

.. but a lonely little boy,

with a domineering father,...

.. a customs officer,...


.. who was 52 when he was born.

And...

.. an affectionate, doting mother...

.. who was 29.

The father died at 65...

.. when the boy was nearly 14.

Adolf Hitler.
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:eye-poppi
 
Posters here believed in an SS breeding program?

HansMustermann wrote:

In all fairness, the Nazis did have a breeding program too

In response, DDT wrote:
Yes, Lebensborn. If you looked Aryan enough, you could even participate. For a dramatization see, e.g., the movie Sophie's Choice.

To be fair, while "DDT" says the Nazis did have a breeding program, the link he offers says they didn't have a breeding program.

However movies aren't the only source of confusion. An article in Life Magazine either in April or May 1945, made the allegation of the breeding program, complete with photos of strong babies. These babies were most likely the children of SS men who had died in battle, which was a major aspect of the lebensborn.

There is an episode of Phil Donahue which has on it Michael Shermer and gas chamber denier Bradley Smith. On the show a phone caller mixes Lebensborn with Mengele experiments, and Michael Shermer apparently believes her.

I myself remember hearing the legend of the breeding program in high school from another student.

I also wonder that if this was a program within the SS, and the SS had racial laws for admittance, that the lebensborn was "racial" only via being a program for the SS, but I'm not sure what the answer to that is.
 
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In response, DDT wrote:
Yes, Lebensborn. If you looked Aryan enough, you could even participate. For a dramatization see, e.g., the movie Sophie's Choice.

To be fair, while "DDT" says the Nazis did have a breeding program, the link he offers says they didn't have a breeding program.
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Actually, the wiki link doesn't precisely say it wasn't a "breeding program." Accordingly DDT's answer of yes can be read as consistent with the link. It's kind of a semantic issue, and may depend on one's definition of "breeding program."

After World War II it was reported that Lebensborn was a breeding programme. While individuals were not forced to have sex with selected partners[1], the programme did aim to promote the growth of "superior" Aryan populations through providing excellent health care and by restricting access to the programme with medical selections that applied eugenic and "race" criteria.
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So the Wiki article does not reject the notion of labelling it a "breeding program" per se. It does, however, say that it did not involve compulsory breeding.

- Dave
 
Wasn't it a breeding program? After all, it was aimed at promoting the birth of 'racially suitable' babies.
While not forced breeding, it still seems like a breeding program to me.
 
Wasn't it a breeding program? After all, it was aimed at promoting the birth of 'racially suitable' babies.
While not forced breeding, it still seems like a breeding program to me.
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The point is arguable either way semantically, which is why Wiki doesn't commit to saying it was or wasn't a breeding program.

Personally, I'd rather describe it as a policy consistent with racial eugenics, and leave it at that. But YMMV.

What seems to have created the argument here in this thread is that Budly just assumed that when the term "breeding program" was used, it necessarily meant forced or compulsory breeding. Accordingly, he may have intentionally or unintentially knocked down a straw man.

- Dave
 
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Well when it comes to Hitler/Nazis there's usually a lot of lies. Jesse Owens is an example. So how can we know about the Lebensborn objectively? I don't know, but my impression is that if you were in the Waffen SS, and you died in battle, that you'd know there was a program to help your wife take care of your children, or even to help children born out of wedlock. Perhaps this included help if you were still alive and on the front and couldn't be with your kids, that there was an organization to help care for them. And then when Life Magazine came upon one of these places and saw all these kids, they drew "the master race breeding program" conclusions.
 
Well when it comes to Hitler/Nazis there's usually a lot of lies. Jesse Owens is an example. So how can we know about the Lebensborn objectively? I don't know, but my impression is that if you were in the Waffen SS, and you died in battle, that you'd know there was a program to help your wife take care of your children, or even to help children born out of wedlock. Perhaps this included help if you were still alive and on the front and couldn't be with your kids, that there was an organization to help care for them. And then when Life Magazine came upon one of these places and saw all these kids, they drew "the master race breeding program" conclusions.
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There is no reason to hold allegations directed at the Nazis to a different evidentiary standard than allegations directed against any other regime.

Anyway, Wiki makes clear that the program was not only for members of the SS but rather to any and all "aryans," so if you are trying to imply that this was some kind of "employee benefit" program for SS members rather than a policy of racial eugenics, you are at very least inconsistent with wiki. Beyond wiki, I do not know as I haven't studied any further.

You aren't seriously denying the Nazi belief in racial eugenics, are you?

- Dave
 
Budly said:
Well when it comes to Hitler/Nazis there's usually a lot of lies. Jesse Owens is an example. So how can we know about the Lebensborn objectively? I don't know, but my impression is that if you were in the Waffen SS, and you died in battle, that you'd know there was a program to help your wife take care of your children, or even to help children born out of wedlock.
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You keep harping on babies of SS men. Not just SS men, Budly, I repeat from my previous post:
ddt said:
You are aware, Budly, that the most well-known Lebensborn baby, Ms. Lyngstad, had a father who was "just" a Wehrmacht officer (captain IIRC). I'm sure you know here, or at least her music. :p
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wiki entry of Ms. Lyngstad

And some music to cheer you up, Budly:


She doesn't look very Aryan though (sorry Budly, she's the brunette :D)
 
Budly said:
Well when it comes to Hitler/Nazis there's usually a lot of lies. Jesse Owens is an example.
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Is the below claim an example of what you say is a lie?

On the first day, Hitler shook hands only with the German victors and then left the stadium. Olympic committee officials then insisted Hitler greet each and every medalist or none at all. Hitler opted for the latter and skipped all further medal presentations.

Owens claims, "When I passed the Chancellor he arose, waved his hand at me, and I waved back at him. I think the writers showed bad taste in criticizing the man of the hour in Germany. ” and "Hitler didn't snub me; it was FDR who snubbed me. The president didn't even send me a telegram." Jesse Owens was never invited to the White House nor bestowed any honors by Presidents Roosevelt or Truman during their terms.
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Ranb
 
Hi Dudalb and DDT,

Read the entry on Abba's Anni-Frid Lyngstad. She wasn't a lebensborn baby. A lebensborn baby would be a baby who was in a lebensborn home/facility. She never was.
 
Budly said:
Hi Dudalb and DDT,

Read the entry on Abba's Anni-Frid Lyngstad. She wasn't a lebensborn baby. A lebensborn baby would be a baby who was in a lebensborn home/facility. She never was.
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She may not be the best example indeed. For one, she was born after the end of the war. In Norway, the term "Lebensborn" is often used more broadly for all children with German (military) fathers.

However, German soldiers were explicitly encouraged to fraternize with the local girls in certain countries, especially in Norway. There were 15 Lebensborn facilities all over Norway, one of them in Narvik, 20 km from the village where Anni-Frid was born. Mind, Lebensborn also entailed prenatal medical and financial care for the mother, but I've found no conclusive evidence this was the case with Anni-Frid's mother.
 
Budly said:
...All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
Click to expand...

Interesting quote. Stupidity, on the other hand, generally stays in the first stage forever. I'm sure old Artie S. himself would agree that not everything that gets ridiculed will inevitably evolve to self-evident truth stage. As Carl Sagan once said, "They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
 
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DDT wrote:
However, German soldiers were explicitly encouraged to fraternize with the local girls in certain countries, especially in Norway.
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Can you back up that claim?

DDT wrote:
In Norway, the term "Lebensborn" is often used more broadly for all children with German (military) fathers.
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How do you know?
 
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