Naturopath Education vs Med School

[T.A.M.]

I dunno. I think I'm just still holding a grudge because my aunt-in-law died of cancer after delaying treatment on the advice of her son's naturopath common law wife advised her not to trust "big pharma" and do coffee enemas instead.

No I don't think there is a need for a grudge. Your approach and logic are sound and just. These Naturopaths are with almost no exception quacks to the last. Their education is very inferior, and what they claim to be able to do is FALSE ADVERTISING at the least, malpractice/criminal negligence in all reality.

TAM

 

[JJM]

No I don't think there is a need for a grudge. Your approach and logic are sound and just. These Naturopaths are with almost no exception quacks to the last. Their education is very inferior, and what they claim to be able to do is FALSE ADVERTISING at the least, malpractice/criminal negligence in all reality.

TAM

Unfortunately, that last is not true if they are licensed. After a major mishap, their friends merely testify that they followed the "standard of practice" for their trade. A few years ago an un-licensed ND killed a customer and he was arrested. His lawyer said that if they would license him he would not be in trouble. How's that, a license to kill.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

No I don't think there is a need for a grudge. Your approach and logic are sound and just. These Naturopaths are with almost no exception quacks to the last. Their education is very inferior, and what they claim to be able to do is FALSE ADVERTISING at the least, malpractice/criminal negligence in all reality.

TAM

Thank you. I kind of figured I wasn't being unreasonable or anything. My mind just boggles.

Unfortunately, that last is not true if they are licensed. After a major mishap, their friends merely testify that they followed the "standard of practice" for their trade. A few years ago an un-licensed ND killed a customer and he was arrested. His lawyer said that if they would license him he would not be in trouble. How's that, a license to kill.

True that. Now they can get insurance and stuff so they can get off scot free and not have to go broke while they are at it.

 

[WitchyWoman]

First and foremost, what exactly is your objection to natural health? I've been in natural health forever. Actually I started out in orthodox medicine and switched over. I worked with critically ill cancer patients. I think each form of medicine has its place. for Eons, holding a grudge is awful. You can not blame this on Naturopaths. for all you know your aunt would have perished with or without conventional meds or any other treatment for that matter. My step mother had 3 rounds of chemo and died anyways so saying she would have been fine if she had gotten immediate intervention from MD's is a false statement.

Also there seems to be a huge misconception about the prescribing powers that everyone seems to be complaining about. These laws only came into effect because Mega vitamin therapy, hormone therapies, and glandular therapies are now classified as needing a script. They had to give prescribing rights to them for this reason because vitamins, hormone and glandular therapies are for the most part natural therapies.

Oddly, I've never seen anyone post that the education of an ND is the same or equivalent of an MD. I have seen it said that they take the same pre-med courses or the equivalent of. Exactly why do you consider ND's quacks? and what is the biggest argument here? So you don't like ND's?? So don't go to them, isn't it that simple?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

This only shows your ignorance about cancer. If caught early (unless some weird forms of pancreatic, etc.) it IS curable. Her cancer was curable until she delayed treatment because of the naturopath. My mother-in-law had her cancer cured with surgery and radiation. She didn't even need chemo because it was caught before it metastasized.

I linked to where the claim was being made, there are people saying that NDs are just MDs that go on to specialize in naturopathy. This is not true. ND schools are not teaching pre-med, and their educations are nowhere near the same. Also, at the linked facebook discussion, they are claiming the naturopaths are in hospitals, and prescribing drugs (with an MD overseeing).

I would NEVER got to an ND for anything. Too bad others do, and then die because their ailments go completely untreated. Herbs, detoxes, vitamins, etc. are not proper treatments for things like cancer.

 

[Madalch]

So you don't like ND's?? So don't go to them, isn't it that simple?

That's a bit like saying, "What does it matter if X is a thief/murderer/rapist? He didn't steal from/murder/rape -you-, did he?"

Naturopaths take money from the gullible and pretend to give them medical treatments. That's fraud, and it's illegal for a reason.

 

[T.A.M.]

First and foremost, what exactly is your objection to natural health? I've been in natural health forever. Actually I started out in orthodox medicine and switched over. I worked with critically ill cancer patients. I think each form of medicine has its place. for Eons, holding a grudge is awful. You can not blame this on Naturopaths. for all you know your aunt would have perished with or without conventional meds or any other treatment for that matter. My step mother had 3 rounds of chemo and died anyways so saying she would have been fine if she had gotten immediate intervention from MD's is a false statement.

Also there seems to be a huge misconception about the prescribing powers that everyone seems to be complaining about. These laws only came into effect because Mega vitamin therapy, hormone therapies, and glandular therapies are now classified as needing a script. They had to give prescribing rights to them for this reason because vitamins, hormone and glandular therapies are for the most part natural therapies.

Oddly, I've never seen anyone post that the education of an ND is the same or equivalent of an MD. I have seen it said that they take the same pre-med courses or the equivalent of. Exactly why do you consider ND's quacks? and what is the biggest argument here? So you don't like ND's?? So don't go to them, isn't it that simple?

lack of strong scientific evidence for the majority of their claims is one reason I find them quacks.

Also, as EONS has said, caught early, and treated with TRADITIONAL medicine early, the vast majority of cancers can not only be sent into long term remission, but many can be cured. Delay through the misconceived notion that natural remedies will do the same, OR EVEN CLOSE, is criminal.

TAM

 

[JJM]

... I think each form of medicine has its place. ...

There is only one kind of medicine- that which is known to be safe and effective. Links have been provided above that describe n'pathy, you should study the subject before you pontificate.

 

[fls]

I think each form of medicine has its place.

Naturopathy isn't a form of medicine. Medicine refers to the practice of maintaining and restoring health, using systematic study and attention to the use of evidence. It also refers to an automatous profession whose members can be depended upon* to uphold the standards and ethics of the profession, which includes regulatory action against those who don't.

Naturopathy may use some of the products of medicine - some of the gathered knowledge or some of the therapies - but it is indifferent to the use of systematic study or attention to the use of evidence. It also cannot be depended upon to hold its members to those standards and ethics applicable to the promotion of health. Rather, what is served is the process of ******** and Mind****ing.

NOTE: The article I have linked above contains two words blocked on the JREF forum.

Linda

*In reference to general principles and practices, rather than individual failures.

 

[luchog]

Okay, there have got to be resources that show the difference between naturopath educations and actual MD and pre-med educations.

The course catalog at Bastyr University, one of the largest naturopathic schools in North America, is pretty comprehensive on what courses are required, and what they involve. YOu'll note that even the "graduate" degrees state that previous medical education or experience is "desirable, but not required". Their undergraduate courses do not provide anything like the level of education that an ordinary pre-med student would get.

 

[luchog]

What on Earth do the poor pharmacists do when they get a prescription from a narturoquack for a drug dosage or combination that is deadly? If such was from an MD, he or she could talk the language of science to the doctor and presumably they would come to a sensible conclusion. What if the naturoquack simple tells the pharmacist to piss off? When a severe interaction occurs, who does the patient turn too?

That's not a common occurence, since few naturopaths will prescribe actual prescription drugs. In fact, very few placed allow naturopaths to write prescriptions. My state only does if they're earned an MD first. The vast majority of the time, naturopaths are prescribing herbal folk-remedies, TCM, Ayurvedic treatments, dietary changes, accupuncture, and/or an assortment of fluffy-bunny crystal-waving nonsense.

In the case of the first 3 especially, this can cause similar problems if the naturopathic prescribed remedies interact badly with any real medication the patient is already taking, or triggers allergies/sensitivities; and many remedies, particularly Ayurvedic, are known to be dangerous on their own.

 

[WitchyWoman]

Wow. Well, you guys had better contact the Cancer association and tell them how wrong they are. they are still searching for a cure so I suppose they are all frauds? I can tell you from first hand experience that cancer can be TREATED and some people do respond but not all do no matter how quickly it is caught.

I read the link you posted and it did not say the education were the same. It said the prerequisites were the same and ND's go onto their specialized areas and pre-med students go onto become doctors.

Naturopathy is NOT illegal and they have not stole, killed or raped anyone. Whether it was just an example using it as such is not only ignorant but defamatory.

JJM, funny I was thinking the same thing about your and most posts on the subject.

As far as it not being real medicine is just laughable. Do you not realize where your real medicine got its roots? Most ND's work with herbs and mega vitamin regimes. Many of your modern medicines that you consider REAL medicine was based on this type of folk medicine. Herbalism is long standing and beneficial. Try looking up white willow, deadly nightshade or belladonna, and more importantly rosey periwinkle. all these herbs you say are nonsense and have no scientific evidence are regularly used in your modern medicines today.

you are welcome to be up in arms about the up and coming laws for prescribing ND's so far what I've seen from you folks is opinion based conclusions and for that matter many of your opinions are wrong.

 

[luchog]

First and foremost, what exactly is your objection to natural health? I've been in natural health forever. Actually I started out in orthodox medicine and switched over.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I have been involved with naturopathy since I was born. My parents were huge supporters of naturopathic and "holistic" medicine; and I was as well, until I was well into adulthood (I had even considering studying to become a naturopath). I think I went to real doctors a total of 6 times in my entire life, all of those in my early childhood. From the time I was about 8 or 9, until I was an adult, I never saw a real doctor; only naturopaths and chiropractors, no matter how sick I got.

I have had several chronic medical disorders my entire life; none of which were properly treated until it was far too late. Now, several of them are causing me serious physical problems. None of them would be nearly as disabling had they been properly diagnosed and treated when I was young; and have caused me a great deal of unnecessary pain, discomfort, and physical limitations.

Also there seems to be a huge misconception about the prescribing powers that everyone seems to be complaining about. These laws only came into effect because Mega vitamin therapy, hormone therapies, and glandular therapies are now classified as needing a script. They had to give prescribing rights to them for this reason because vitamins, hormone and glandular therapies are for the most part natural therapies.

This is quite amazingly wrong in many many ways. Vitamin therapy doesn't require a prescription here in the US. NDs were given limited prescribing ability because of politicial lobbying; and the degree of that ability, as well as the requirements involved, vary widely by state.

Oddly, I've never seen anyone post that the education of an ND is the same or equivalent of an MD. I have seen it said that they take the same pre-med courses or the equivalent of. Exactly why do you consider ND's quacks? and what is the biggest argument here? So you don't like ND's?? So don't go to them, isn't it that simple?

I've seen many NDs claim that their education is equivalent to a GP. Bastyr University implies this heavily on their website.

I would NEVER got to an ND for anything. Too bad others do, and then die because their ailments go completely untreated. Herbs, detoxes, vitamins, etc. are not proper treatments for things like cancer.

I can say with 100% assurance that my health is substantially worse today because my parents chose naturopathy instead of real medicine.

 

[Estellea]

First and foremost, what exactly is your objection to natural health? I've been in natural health forever. Actually I started out in orthodox medicine and switched over. I worked with critically ill cancer patients. I think each form of medicine has its place. for Eons, holding a grudge is awful. You can not blame this on Naturopaths. for all you know your aunt would have perished with or without conventional meds or any other treatment for that matter. My step mother had 3 rounds of chemo and died anyways so saying she would have been fine if she had gotten immediate intervention from MD's is a false statement.

You can't say it is a false conjecture any more than it is definitively the lack of medicine that could have saved Eos' aunt. The problem is, is that she was duped and established practises suggest that her aunt statistically could have been cured or perhaps enjoyed some remission and that option was removed from the table.

Also there seems to be a huge misconception about the prescribing powers that everyone seems to be complaining about. These laws only came into effect because Mega vitamin therapy, hormone therapies, and glandular therapies are now classified as needing a script. They had to give prescribing rights to them for this reason because vitamins, hormone and glandular therapies are for the most part natural therapies.

No, there is no misconceptions, naturopaths have always been able to 'prescribe' vitamins, natural hormone supplements, homeopathy and natural antibiotics. They have been and continue to lobby for broader prescriptive authority that includes synthetic medicines and scheduled drugs. Which is ironic since if you are touting the benefits of natural remedies being superior over conventional medicines. The fierce lobbying to prescribe drugs is antithetical to naturopathic philosophy.

Oddly, I've never seen anyone post that the education of an ND is the same or equivalent of an MD. I have seen it said that they take the same pre-med courses or the equivalent of. Exactly why do you consider ND's quacks? and what is the biggest argument here? So you don't like ND's?? So don't go to them, isn't it that simple?

I guess you haven't read much on the subject then: http://www.cnmwellness.com/drmilner/the-new-law-expands-patient-access-to-primary-care/

“Nothing is further from the truth. Standard training for a naturopathic medical degree covers biology, chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, physiology, basic therapeutics and even pharmacology, just like the curriculum for medical doctors. In addition, naturopaths receive clinical instruction in naturopathic therapeutics, nutrition and patient counseling, and they are exposed to “traditional” medicines and treatments used in other cultures with success. A recent study in Wisconsin found that the four-year naturopathic degree program requires a total of almost 1,000 more hours of in-class training than does one of its leading medical schools."

And do you know what that 1,000 more hours of classroom training consist of? Either woo courses or sub-standard courses that are protracted in order to make that claim and help the poor wee naturopathy students pass their courses. Chiro schools do the same thing and courses are taught by other naturopaths and chiros which is clearly not on par with standard medical instruction that is provided by experts in their respective fields. The problem isn't just informed people not going to naturopaths, it's the easily-duped and manipulated that don't pursue valid medical modalities and instead, fall victims to the dubious practises of sCAM 'healers'.

 

[luchog]

Wow. Well, you guys had better contact the Cancer association and tell them how wrong they are. they are still searching for a cure so I suppose they are all frauds? I can tell you from first hand experience that cancer can be TREATED and some people do respond but not all do no matter how quickly it is caught.

This is completely and totally nonsensical. You, like many naturopathic woos, seem to beleive that there is one single, monolithic disease called "cancer", and it can all be cured by a magic pill. This is blinding ignorance; and a disingenuous evasion used by those who try to blame the patient for the failure of their pet medical quackery.

"Cancer" is not a disease. It is a general catch-all term for a large variety of similar diseases. There are many, many different kinds of cancers. Some of these are easily treatable, even fully curable, if caught early enough. Others are more difficult to treat; but still have very good prognoses if caught and subjected to valid medical treatment in time. There are some for which treatments are only marginally effective. Scientific medical esearch is being done to 1) improve the detection of cancers, since the earlier they're caught, the easier they are to treat; 2) improve existing treatments for many common cancers, making them more effective with fewer unpleasant effects; and 3) find new and better treatments for every kind of cancer we know. Naturopaths are still using the same garbage that was being used when the average life expectancy was 40; and the only treatment for cancer was doping the patient into oblivion until they died.

All types of cancer will end up untreatable and irreversible if allowed to progress too far. People attempting to treat their cancers through naturopathic methods are very often in this stage, or close to it, by the time they seek real medical treatment; and disingenuous naturopaths use that as an excuse to claim that the patient was already "too far gone" and that evidence-based medicine "wouldn't have made a difference". The truth is, the vast majority of these patients would have lived years, even decades, longer had they gone to a real doctor, instead of a naturopath, from the beginning

 

[Jeff Corey]

...Actually I started out in orthodox medicine and switched over. I worked with critically ill cancer patients...

What does "started out" mean? A couple of undergrad premed courses? Some med school? Maybe a nursing degree?
It doesn't sound like you know much about real medicine.

 

[WitchyWoman]

Both of you are wrong. The RECENT laws that are in debate as we speak only changed because of the RECLASSIFICATION of certain therapies needing a script NOW. Estellea, you never needed a script before for mega vitamin regimes and now that is changing. Anyone can go and get a multivitamin so saying they needed a script previously is ridiculous. We're talking MEGA vitamin which is completely different thing. The government is trying to make all these therapies script mandatory, so it stands to reason that the people who have these therapies in their practice will need the authority to write script for them.

Luchog, sounds to me like your parents were fanatical. I have never ever said that natural health should replace conventional. I've always maintained that both practices have a place. Conventional medicine is a much needed practice for surgeries, and as you stated chronic ailments. I'd be interested in chatting about your 'many chronic ailments', just saying it does not make it true but it does make for a compelling story to win arguments. Also, many MD's have hacked people to bits killed many and prescribed conflicting meds which ended in their demise, does this make ALL MD's bad? Certainly not.

Actually Luchog, I never claimed there was one cure all pill for cancer or a CURE at all, that was you that claimed that.

You can't say it is a false conjecture any more than it is definitively the lack of medicine that could have saved Eos' aunt.

You just made my point for me. the only fact we know conclusively is, cancer killed her.

 

[fls]

As far as it not being real medicine is just laughable. Do you not realize where your real medicine got its roots? Most ND's work with herbs and mega vitamin regimes. Many of your modern medicines that you consider REAL medicine was based on this type of folk medicine. Herbalism is long standing and beneficial. Try looking up white willow, deadly nightshade or belladonna, and more importantly rosey periwinkle. all these herbs you say are nonsense and have no scientific evidence are regularly used in your modern medicines today.

This is like claiming that astrology is valid because astronomers look at the stars. But you are incorrect that modern medicine is based on folk medicine. It is based, rather, on the application of scientific thinking. We do not use the collected wisdom of folk medicine because we have discovered that it was wholy inadequate as a way to discover safe and effective medicines. Folk medicine was unable to discover that salicylates are effective in preventing heart disease and it was unable to discover the substantial harm that indiscriminate use can cause.

Linda

 

[Estellea]

Both of you are wrong. The RECENT laws that are in debate as we speak only changed because of the RECLASSIFICATION of certain therapies needing a script NOW. Estellea, you never needed a script before for mega vitamin regimes and now that is changing. Anyone can go and get a multivitamin so saying they needed a script previously is ridiculous. We're talking MEGA vitamin which is completely different thing. The government is trying to make all these therapies script mandatory, so it stands to reason that the people who have these therapies in their practice will need the authority to write script for them.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First you said this:

Also there seems to be a huge misconception about the prescribing powers that everyone seems to be complaining about. These laws only came into effect because Mega vitamin therapy, hormone therapies, and glandular therapies are now classified as needing a script. They had to give prescribing rights to them for this reason because vitamins, hormone and glandular therapies are for the most part natural therapies

Now the above. Why don't you provide a source for your claims? In the U.S. these don't require prescriptions and haven't. Naturopaths want prescriptive authority for synthetics and scheduled drugs and they aren't qualified to prescribe these or any medicines for that matter.

Luchog, sounds to me like your parents were fanatical. I have never ever said that natural health should replace conventional. I've always maintained that both practices have a place. Conventional medicine is a much needed practice for surgeries, and as you stated chronic ailments. I'd be interested in chatting about your 'many chronic ailments', just saying it does not make it true but it does make for a compelling story to win arguments. Also, many MD's have hacked people to bits killed many and prescribed conflicting meds which ended in their demise, does this make ALL MD's bad? Certainly not.

See that Luchog? Your parents were doin' it wrong.

 

[quarky]

Sometimes I see a woo book that has several degrees after the author's name. M.D. is never one of them. I'd love to see the whole list of these weird degrees, and know what they stand for.