Naturopath Education vs Med School

[Eos of the Eons]

I would love to see their curriculum for "biochemistry". It's not organic chemistry. they somehow all come out of their "schools" still thinking "chemicals" are ALL TOXIC.

I bet for "neuroscience" they use something written by Deepak Chopra or something stupid.

 

[Jeff Corey]

I would love to see their curriculum for "biochemistry". It's not organic chemistry. they somehow all come out of their "schools" still thinking "chemicals" are ALL TOXIC...

And natural herbs like datura and nightshade have no chemicals in them.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.amfoundation.org/naturopathinfo.htm

Yeah, their versions of "biochemistry":
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595453406/thealternative0a
http://www.energetic-medicine.net/b...turopathy---NutriEnergetics-System/Page1.html


Ugh....
http://www.ncnz.co.nz/naturopathydiploma.html

Endocrinology??

http://www.naturalpedia.com/book_Fundamentals_of_Naturopathic_Endriconology.html


You can bet these ridiculous naturopathy schools don't use any texts found in medical schools!

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Oh, and ain't this just a nice spin on what they would teach in medical school!!

"The apparent motive behind the development of pharmaceuticals was to create purer, more potent, and more effective "medicines." Unfortunately, as we now know, the net result was, in many cases, just the opposite—less effective medicines with a whole range of deadly side effects. Pharmaceuticals, however, do offer one major advantage over herbs. They are patentable, and as such, generate billions and billions of dollars in profits for the companies that manufacture them—and the medical system that distributes them."

Yeahhhh, real doctors sell drugs outta their offices, and are ONLY PROFIT motivated!! Cuz using crappy herbs with who knows what in them at who knows what dose is soooo much better for you! Yeah, Russian Roulette is such a fun game, what would life be like if you actually knew what happens next in your "treatment" plan from naturopaths.


http://www.naturalpedia.com/Medicines.html

I already knew they taught naturopaths to thumb their noses up ensuring doses were the same in every pill they dole out, and who cares what's in the herb as far as "chemicals" cuz their crap is "chemical free" !!

 

[Eos of the Eons]

And natural herbs like datura and nightshade have no chemicals in them.

Of course, and biochemistry has NOTHING to do with nasty #$$ chemicals! It's life and energy and herbs all hand in hand... la la la!

*crazy laugh*

 

[Chris Haynes]

Well I am sure there are a few former naturopaths who have reformed and stoped practicing. They would be the good naturopaths.

One of them is a counselor at my kids' high school. By a fluke of their last name they get her. She is a graduate of Bastyr University. Ugh. She is always listed as "Dr." on all correspondence.

I am still peeved that I sent her the summer community college transcripts of my sons to her, and yet she kept putting all of credits to one or the other. First she put all on one child, I told her it was wrong... so she switched to the other child. I had to go in there and pull the records apart. She was lifting the entire set of transcripts from one kid's record to the other... without fully noticing the names were different

Sure, they both started with the same initial... but surely most people can tell the difference between "Peter" and "Patrick", right? Aaagh!

Next year my daughter plans to start Running Start. That means dealing with another set of community college credits. Hopefully since both boys have graduated and her name starts with another letter "Dr." B will be able to apply the transcripts properly!

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I can see this going in the same path as the doctor of osteopathy. In its original form, osteopathy was just as woo as chiropracty, and made a lot of the same claims. Initially osteopathic physicians didn't have anywhere near equivalent training to an MD, and didn't have anything resembling hospital priveleges or prescribing power. As they moved towards the mainstream, they got prescribing power, and with it the responsibility to know how to use it, so osteopathic schools started being more and more like med schools. As it stands now, there isn't a whole lot of difference between what an DO and an MD can do, at least in general practice.

If naturopaths want to prescribe non-naturopathic medicine, they'll have to know what they do, what the indications are, etc. That means they'll have to move towards the mainstream in their practice. If they prescribe without knowing what the pills do, or for inappropriate indications, they'd better have good malpractice insurance, and even so they won't last long.

I don't neccesarily see this as a bad thing. Access to medical care is a huge issue worldwide, and as long as the right medicines are getting to the right patients in the right doses, I'm not that inclined to worry about credentials. If (and only if) a naturopath can meet that standard, more power to them.

A

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Nach. It'll be like chiros who "prescribe" herbal supplements. They still bash mainstream medicine and science, and make up crap about vaccines, chemo, etc. in order to scare people into using them instead.

If they want to prescribe, then got MED school. They do exist. You just have to give up the easy form of fantasy based "biochemistry" and take real biochemistry courses. Too hard for the most of them, I'm betting, that's why they have to go to dumbed down school where make believe and fantasy are easier to learn.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm still not sure of your opinion here, Eos. Are you for or against naturopathy?

 

[JJM]

I can see this going in the same path as the doctor of osteopathy. ...

No, it isn't. If NDs wanted to bedome equivalent to medical people they had plenty of time to do so. Dr. Imago (above) was spot on. See www.naturowatch.org Make sure to read the review of their textbook.

If naturopaths want to prescribe non-naturopathic medicine, they'll have to know what they do, what the indications are, etc. ...

No, they will just need permission from the legislature.

I don't neccesarily see this as a bad thing. Access to medical care is a huge issue worldwide ...

Naturopaths do not provide medical care, or any form of health care. See also http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/465994 and http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/471156

 

[Estellea]

Naturopaths do not provide medical care, or any form of health care. See also http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/465994 and http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/471156

But some U.S. states do allow broad prescriptive authority to NDs and their goal is to usurp primary medical practitioners and even specialists in some cases.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

But some U.S. states do allow broad prescriptive authority to NDs and their goal is to usurp primary medical practitioners and even specialists in some cases.

Scary ain't it. Chiros want to do the same thing. My teacher at the woo woo school I went to proudly proclaimed that natural medicine would replace "Big Pharma" and nasty ##### medical doctors cuz nasty chemicals like chemo is what really kills people. They clearly think this bunkum has something to it and really push that real doctors and hospitals do far more harm than good angle. They are gonna save the world with homeopathy and energy healing!!

On the other hand they claim their educations are the same and they should get to prescribe the very things they say are killing people, cuz they know better than MDs because their mystery ND woo woo energy educations are BETTER than learning about actual chemicals that make up the human body!! Cuz all chemicals are teh ebils!! Hooomanz are made of teh energies, not teh chemicalz.

Makes the head spin.

 

[JJM]

... On the other hand they claim their educations are the same and they should get to prescribe the very things they say are killing people, cuz they know better than MDs because their mystery ND woo woo energy educations are BETTER than learning about actual chemicals that make up the human body!! ...

The mind boggles. On the one hand, they (NDs) claim their education is equivalent to an MD, and on the other they claim they are better.

They claim to take the proper, basic-science courses (anatomy, physiology etc.); but their beliefs in homeopathy, acupuncture, iridology and "applied" kinesiology show that they don't have a meaningful understanding of those topics.

It seems the most important part of their ministrations is an obsession with colon "detoxification" via purgatives, fasting and enemas. Now, as Estellea observed, they want to be seen as "specialists." I recently heard an interview with an ND who "specialized in cancer prevention." She focused on how to cook veggies- she never mentioned tobacco, sunlight, alcohol, hepatitis from shared needles, or papilloma virus. This is an expert? What is especially sad- she was on a program "The Health Show" which is headed by an MD and nationally syndicated by an NPR station (www.wamc.org Albany, NY). Don't MDs have to know better than quacks? (I know they don't; but I can dream, can't I?)

 

[blutoski]

If they prescribe without knowing what the pills do, or for inappropriate indications, they'd better have good malpractice insurance, and even so they won't last long.

As another poster implied, this is probably optomistic.

DSHEA proved that legislation can protect malpractice by defining it as the appropriate standard of care. The inertia is toward 'consumer freedom' aka caveat emptor.

 

[blutoski]

As another poster implied, this is probably optomistic.

DSHEA proved that legislation can protect malpractice by defining it as the appropriate standard of care. The inertia is toward 'consumer freedom' aka caveat emptor.

Actually, the way it seems to be working in BC is that they are establishing parallel systems, and the patient chooses a system and it is implied that they are disclaiming alternate standards of care.

The judge will defer to the Naturopathic College to see if a ND patient death was caused by a naturopath dropping the ball. The testimony of MDs would not be relevant.

 

[dudalb]

I.

I don't neccesarily see this as a bad thing. Access to medical care is a huge issue worldwide, and as long as the right medicines are getting to the right patients in the right doses, I'm not that inclined to worry about credentials. If (and only if) a naturopath can meet that standard, more power to them.

A

Yeah, let's forget about credentials and let anybody who can get a fly by night certificate from some quack medical school prescript drugs.That will really help the public health.

 

[blutoski]

Yeah, let's forget about credentials and let anybody who can get a fly by night certificate from some quack medical school prescript drugs.That will really help the public health.

I think Andrew Wiggin has the right intention, and that's what's appealing about these recent legislative changes.

The theory is that the patient is getting care for less cost, and perhaps also that a segment who eschews conventional medicine will get care without compromising their belief system.

The reality is that the reason we have the regulatory environment we have is that it is a response to 'the bad old days' and we're not moving forward - we're moving backward to the time when patients were treated as ordinary consumers.

There is a disproportionate risk involved. Choose a bad barber, and you need to wear a hat for four weeks, but you can probably ask for a refund.

Choose a quack doctor, and you die. And you wife is widowed. And your kids lose a parent. And they can't refund lost years of life. And probably can't compensate with a cash settlement, either, since they're typically incorporated and your widow can only sue for the assets of the company shell.

This is the way it used to be. Our grandparents fought desperately to make it change. And now they're dead and we're back to listening to the quack advertisements without the experience to show us what's wrong.

I'm really, really hoping that we don't have to live through a generation of caveat emptor medicine.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

What on Earth do the poor pharmacists do when they get a prescription from a narturoquack for a drug dosage or combination that is deadly? If such was from an MD, he or she could talk the language of science to the doctor and presumably they would come to a sensible conclusion. What if the naturoquack simple tells the pharmacist to piss off? When a severe interaction occurs, who does the patient turn too?

 

[JJM]

What on Earth do the poor pharmacists do when they get a prescription from a narturoquack for a drug dosage or combination that is deadly? If such was from an MD, he or she could talk the language of science to the doctor and presumably they would come to a sensible conclusion. What if the naturoquack simple tells the pharmacist to piss off? When a severe interaction occurs, who does the patient turn too?

That is a big problem. A pharmacist can (indeed, must) refuse to fill an erroneous prescription. However, liability is going to be a problem if the prescription looks okay to the pharmacist who, after all, gets scant information.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm still not sure of your opinion here, Eos. Are you for or against naturopathy?

I dunno. I think I'm just still holding a grudge because my aunt-in-law died of cancer after delaying treatment on the advice of her son's naturopath common law wife advised her not to trust "big pharma" and do coffee enemas instead.