My argument against materialism

[dafydd]

What is this 'tried and tested' technique - to 'keep going on about unknowns and mysteries' ? And what has this tried and tested technique achieved? where are the results, the data, the evidence for it's efficacy? Has it given you a useful, explanatory, predictive, working model of the universe and our place in it? A toolkit that allows us to mould the structure of organic and inorganic matter, rewrite our own genetic code, talk across the world, walk on the moon...? Or was that science?

Well said. I doubt that punshhh is using a mystical computer to post here.

 

[laca]

Thats fine, I don't find it mean or offensive. I had a little trouble with dislexia at school. It was strange, things like English language and maths were not easy to learn, but other things like physics and Geography seemed to come naturally with no effort.

Did you ask others too, like your teachers, or just assumed physics comes naturally?

 

[laca]

Uh, I've been making bold claims have I.

I have a friend who has studied yoga to quite an advanced level. He often stands on his head ie, the lotus position upside down. He found it very beneficial, he said it would clear his head in the morning like nothing else.

Cleared of what? How did he know nothing else worked better? Why did you believe him?

 

[laca]

Yes, this is a consequence of reason as I see it.

I have a concept of God although I continually regard God as inconceivable.

 

[laca]

What is this 'tried and tested' technique - to 'keep going on about unknowns and mysteries' ? And what has this tried and tested technique achieved? where are the results, the data, the evidence for it's efficacy? Has it given you a useful, explanatory, predictive, working model of the universe and our place in it?

So far we've got one friend of his who did yoga and said that standing on his head cleared it like nothing else. That's about it.

 

[dafydd]

My cat has a deep and subtle understanding of the physical world and yet it is clear that due to her old age she can barely think atall. Nearly all her activity is governed by instinct now, instincts which are as sharp as when she was a kitten. She doesn't require a map to experience and know physical reality.

 

[dafydd]

So far we've got one friend of his who did yoga and said that standing on his head cleared it like nothing else. That's about it.

Friars Balsam works for me. Quicker too.

 

[Belz...]

You've heard nothing yet

So you're promising to spout more nonsense instead of learning ?

 

[dlorde]

He often stands on his head ie, the lotus position upside down. He found it very beneficial, he said it would clear his head in the morning like nothing else.

what's mystical or unknown about standing on your head? Having a cold shower or a burst of exercise also helps clear your head. If he finds being upside-down the most refreshing, good luck to him.

 

[dafydd]

I think I've got it. In order to know the unknowable and conceive the inconceivable you have to go to the event horizon of the formless,stand on your head in the lotus position and pretend you're a cat. Who said that mysticism was nonsense?

 

[Belz...]

I think Punshhh really willfully tries to be as nonsensical as possible.

 

[dafydd]

I think Punshhh really willfully tries to be as nonsensical as possible.

So do I.

 

[laca]

I think Punshhh really willfully tries to be as nonsensical as possible.

I don't know why exactly, but I doubt that. There is a weird consistency in his nonsense. It might just be that he's "the real thing".

 

[SusanB-M1]

I think I've got it. In order to know the unknowable and conceive the inconceivable you have to go to the event horizon of the formless,stand on your head in the lotus position and pretend you're a cat. Who said that mysticism was nonsense?

If I didn't have signatures hidden, I think I might add that one!!

I think Punshhh really willfully tries to be as nonsensical as possible.

So do I.

But he's quite good at it, isn't he?! Here we are at page 71 and I do hope it carries on!

 

[punshhh]

I don't know why exactly, but I doubt that. There is a weird consistency in his nonsense. It might just be that he's "the real thing".

You've got it in one!

I have no argument with materialism, I just add an entity.

This entity is the set of unknown unknowns.

I see no other difference between us.

 

[punshhh]

I think Punshhh really willfully tries to be as nonsensical as possible.

You know the quote "there is a fine line between genius and insanity".

Shall we tread this line?

 

[punshhh]

Well, first I would like to point out that this is incorrect. Perception is in your territory area, and it is in fact colored by personality and ego. That is why in the sciences it is generally preferred to do double blind tests, for example.

I do not argue with this, it is quite an intricate affair and we could tease out the detail.
As I am approaching this from a largely unscientific perspective, my definitions are likely to be different to yours. However I see no likely disagreement.

Second, the theoretical, which is in your map area, may be closer to how the world is or further away; yet you're categorizing anything thought comes up with as "polluted" by personality and ego. Is that useful? And more to the point, is it even true? Sure, bias is a big problem that gets in the way of truth. But look at my avatar. It appears to bulge out (your territory), but we really know that all of the lines are straight (your map).

Yes the theoretical should be categorised, its not as simple as I put it. I agree with your point about your avatar except, I don't regard thinking being involved unless the viewer begins to question the effect the lines are having on their perception.
This would imply some colouring in the territory or instant recognition part of the mind, which I would regard as genetic.

Isn't this particular "map" closer to reality than this "territory"? Is it legitimate to say that, hold on, those lines may actually be bulging, because our theory that everything is straight is colored by our personality and ego?

This map may be closer to the reality, however this is only established by the thinker through scientific method ie, holding a ruler against the lines to see how straight they actually are.

Finally, let's get reflective. Your claim that thought is further away because it is colored by personality and ego is itself thought. Being thought, it would be colored by personality and ego. Isn't this in itself a problem?

.

Yes I do regard your last point as part of the colouring.

 

[laca]

You've got it in one!

You do realize that wasn't a compliment, right?

I have no argument with materialism, I just add an entity.

Why?

This entity is the set of unknown unknowns.

What's that? Why is it useful?

I see no other difference between us.

Fortunately that doesn't mean there isn't.

 

[Mashuna]

I have no argument with materialism, I just add an entity.

This entity is the set of unknown unknowns.

What's that? Why is it useful?

And what makes it different from materialism?

 

[punshhh]

You do realize that wasn't a compliment, right?

I know, I was pleased that someone had considered that I was not a crank.

Why?

Because it puts some perspective on our view of what existence is.

What's that? Why is it useful?

The set of unknown unknowns includes everything except the things we know and we know we don't know*

It is usefull for having an open mind about things and for people who ask questions about existence.

Fortunately that doesn't mean there isn't.

[/QUOTE]

This one difference is quite a big difference.

*what we know and know we don't know is a whole other argument.