My argument against materialism

[dafydd]

YOUR lack of knowledge is not indicative of any one else's.

Nor his refusal to learn anything.

 

[Robin]

I do hear you Robin, I do also see this conumdrum.

My mysticism does not deliver me from it, it accepts it along with other conumdrums as consequences of exercising reason.

I see no reason why it is either invalid to ask or to experiment in an attempt to discover what energy is. Just like it was valid to ask what atoms are and what light is at earlier stages of our scientific understanding.

As long as you understand that ultimately there can be no answer.

So the limitation you see in science would also be, necessarily, the limitation in any potential mode of enquiry that we might discover.

If there were a God then he would not know of what he was constituted.

 

[punshhh]

You are confusing the map with the mountains. The next have of your statement actually shows this:

This is a serious point.

I'm suggesting that all thought philosophical, mathematical, spiritual, and scientifically related exists only as figments of human imagination.

By imagination I refering to the map described by Clown.

This map can be used to constructive use in the physical world, for example directing our bodies to invent things like computers etc.

Allied with science, this map has actually begun to relate quite well with the mountain (as described by Clown), ie physical reality outside of the human imagination.

Apart from the ways humanity has made use of the mind constructively through the human body in the physical world, all thought is just machinations and imagination. Little more than a map of existence.

I am concerned primarily with the the real physical world (rather than maps) and regard the mind as only one way of knowing and experiencing it.

 

[punshhh]

As long as you understand that ultimately there can be no answer.

So the limitation you see in science would also be, necessarily, the limitation in any potential mode of enquiry that we might discover.

If there were a God then he would not know of what he was constituted.

I agree, however I would not second guess God. I would accept that it makes sense that any God would be unlikely to know of what he/she was constituted.

 

[Belz...]

This is a serious point.

I'm suggesting that all thought philosophical, mathematical, spiritual, and scientifically related exists only as figments of human imagination.

 

[yy2bggggs]

Hi, welcome to the thread, I am not confusing the map with the mountains, I'm just trying to get a group of map readers a drawers to put the map down for a minuite and look at the mountains.

But:

I'm suggesting that all thought philosophical, mathematical, spiritual, and scientifically related exists only as figments of human imagination.

By imagination I refering to the map described by Clown

You don't seem to realize the severity of the implications of the second quote in light of the first one.

It would be impossible for us to put down the map, if there were even such a thing as putting down the map. But the situation is even "worse" than that.

There is no such thing as putting down the map.

I am concerned primarily with the the real physical world (rather than maps) and regard the mind as only one way of knowing and experiencing it.

Then you're concerned about something that is inherently incoherent.

The mind is the map, and that's no bad thing. The acts of experience and obtaining knowledge are ipso-facto map making. There's no such thing as knowing the territory outside of making a map.

 

[punshhh]

Oh dear I thought we were finally going to agree on something.

Perhaps I am getting drawn into discussing consciousness after all.

When I put "figments of human imagination", I am working from the assumption that in order to have an idea the imagination is required to comprehend the content of and then use said idea.

The implication is that thinking is coloured by aspects of the human condition and the thinkers intellectual development. I am making the distinction that the resultant content of any thought is not a precise representation of physical reality, but rather a coded abstraction.

Physical reality may in practice appear to be something approximating this coded abstraction to the thinker. But it may actually be quite different in unknown ways.

 

[punshhh]

But:

You don't seem to realize the severity of the implications of the second quote in light of the first one.

It would be impossible for us to put down the map, if there were even such a thing as putting down the map. But the situation is even "worse" than that.

There is no such thing as putting down the map.

Then you're concerned about something that is inherently incoherent.

The mind is the map, and that's no bad thing. The acts of experience and obtaining knowledge are ipso-facto map making. There's no such thing as knowing the territory outside of making a map.

I am well aware of the implications of what I am saying, it may appear incoherent to you but there is a simple distinction here.

Has it occured to you that each person is both in the "territory" and in the map room at the same time.

You can feel the physical world with your hand. The mind is only enabling you to know that you are feeling it and processing the sensory information into a recognised sensation. There is no thinking going on and no imagination, unless the conceptual aspect of the mind (the map room) is involved.

The map room or conceptual mind is involved in the development of thoughts, ideas and concepts. Not with comprehending the experience of the sensory apparatus.

My cat has a deep and subtle understanding of the physical world and yet it is clear that due to her old age she can barely think atall. Nearly all her activity is governed by instinct now, instincts which are as sharp as when she was a kitten. She doesn't require a map to experience and know physical reality.

 

[clown]

Hi, welcome to the thread, I am not confusing the map with the mountains, I'm just trying to get a group of map readers a drawers to put the map down for a minuite and look at the mountains.

The circles are a kind of locking of horns, I would love to tell it straight to these guys, but you wouldn't believe the riot of laughter it would produce and would would probably result in a visit to "la Hospital" for someone or other.

There's no need to welcome me 'cause I was here all along... Prove that I wasn't . What you are claiming and arguing is unprovable, the same way as claiming that the world was made this way, with all human memories and buildings, just last Tuesday.

You are claiming that there is no proper knowledge and that there cannot be. That is not logical argument.
You are claiming that there is no way to know and the thing opposite of knowable is madness. And now you are bringing imagination into equation, along energy, matter, soul and consciousness. You are flapping your lip, assessing that you have higher knowledge while at the same time denying it is impossible for someone else to learn it and for you to teach it. That is not knowledge but... something else.

 

[dafydd]

I second that. .Punshhh must be a troll,nobody could be this dim.

 

[dafydd]

There's no need to welcome me 'cause I was here all along... Prove that I wasn't . What you are claiming and arguing is unprovable, the same way as claiming that the world was made this way, with all human memories and buildings, just last Tuesday.

You are claiming that there is no proper knowledge and that there cannot be. That is not logical argument.
You are claiming that there is no way to know and the thing opposite of knowable is madness. And now you are bringing imagination into equation, along energy, matter, soul and consciousness. You are flapping your lip, assessing that you have higher knowledge while at the same time denying it is impossible for someone else to learn it and for you to teach it. That is not knowledge but... something else.

It's called gibberish. Punshhh knows all the big words but seems incapable of stringing them into coherent sentences.

 

[dafydd]

I am well aware of the implications of what I am saying, it may appear incoherent to you but there is a simple distinction here.

Has it occured to you that each person is both in the "territory" and in the map room at the same time.

You can feel the physical world with your hand. The mind is only enabling you to know that you are feeling it and processing the sensory information into a recognised sensation. There is no thinking going on and no imagination, unless the conceptual aspect of the mind (the map room) is involved.

The map room or conceptual mind is involved in the development of thoughts, ideas and concepts. Not with comprehending the experience of the sensory apparatus.

My cat has a deep and subtle understanding of the physical world and yet it is clear that due to her old age she can barely think atall. Nearly all her activity is governed by instinct now, instincts which are as sharp as when she was a kitten. She doesn't require a map to experience and know physical reality.

How long Lord,how long?

 

[dafydd]

I am well aware of the implications of what I am saying, it may appear incoherent to you but there is a simple distinction here.

Has it occured to you that each person is both in the "territory" and in the map room at the same time.

You can feel the physical world with your hand. The mind is only enabling you to know that you are feeling it and processing the sensory information into a recognised sensation. There is no thinking going on and no imagination, unless the conceptual aspect of the mind (the map room) is involved.

The map room or conceptual mind is involved in the development of thoughts, ideas and concepts. Not with comprehending the experience of the sensory apparatus.

My cat has a deep and subtle understanding of the physical world and yet it is clear that due to her old age she can barely think atall. Nearly all her activity is governed by instinct now, instincts which are as sharp as when she was a kitten. She doesn't require a map to experience and know physical reality.

She is a cat,not a mystic.

 

[SusanB-M1]

It's called gibberish. Punshhh knows all the big words but seems incapable of stringing them into coherent sentences.

But you have to give him an award for persistence!

 

[PixyMisa]

What is energy?

The ability to do work.

can you conceive the answer?

Obviously, yes.

I use observations of nature to ponder the nature of what is inconceivable to humans.

It's not working.

For example it is inconceivable;
[snip]
to a man in an uncontacted Amazonian tribe that his body is made of countless spherical atoms.

The ancient Greeks worked that out, so nope.

It is conceivable that every living thing we know would find aspects of reality which humanity is aware of inconceivable.

Why should humans be any different?

Calculus.

 

[dlorde]

Has it occured to you that each person is both in the "territory" and in the map room at the same time.

You can feel the physical world with your hand. The mind is only enabling you to know that you are feeling it and processing the sensory information into a recognised sensation. There is no thinking going on and no imagination, unless the conceptual aspect of the mind (the map room) is involved.

The ... conceptual mind is involved in the development of thoughts, ideas and concepts. Not with comprehending the experience of the sensory apparatus.

One of these things contradicts the other.

We perceive both the world outside (the real world) and the world inside (the world of the imagination) with the same tool - the mind. Because we are not consciously aware of the source of all our perceptions, external or internal, this can lead us to confuse the world outside with the world inside. Because we now find it necessary to clearly distinguish between these two worlds, we have developed a toolset and a system to allow us to do so. This is called science. It allows us to distinguish reality from imagination, and in the process, we learn more about both.

 

[dafydd]

But you have to give him an award for persistence!

If only he would devote that persistence to a pursuit of knowledge.

 

[yy2bggggs]

You can feel the physical world with your hand.

But:

Apart from the ways humanity has made use of the mind constructively through the human body in the physical world, all thought is just machinations and imagination. Little more than a map of existence.

I am concerned primarily with [...] the real physical world (rather than maps) and regard the mind as only one way of knowing and experiencing it.

I feel you are changing the game. In the above quote you're clearly talking about experience being part of the map, and the territory being the real physical world.

But here:

The mind is only enabling you to know that you are feeling it and processing the sensory information into a recognised sensation. There is no thinking going on and no imagination, unless the conceptual aspect of the mind (the map room) is involved.

...it's a different game. Here you're talking about raw sensations as the territory, and theoretical constructs explaining them as the map.

I don't think it's fair to engage me in play and change the rules right after I have my turn. Furthermore, I don't understand why in a discussion of metaphysics you would want to play a game about making sense of experiences, unless you want to make it clear that we're playing the idealism variant.

Can you tell me which game you're playing?

 

[dafydd]

But:

I feel you are changing the game. In the above quote you're clearly talking about experience being part of the map, and the territory being the real physical world.

But here:

...it's a different game. Here you're talking about raw sensations as the territory, and theoretical constructs explaining them as the map.

I don't think it's fair to engage me in play and change the rules right after I have my turn. Furthermore, I don't understand why in a discussion of metaphysics you would want to play a game about making sense of experiences, unless you want to make it clear that we're playing the idealism variant.

Can you tell me which game you're playing?

Blind Man's Bluff?

 

[Halfcentaur]

Thankyou for such an interesting post.

I have refrained from discussing consciousness in this thread because as stated in my previous post, I have no argument with the materialist explanation of it. Apart from the position adopted by some that the materialist position is the whole truth and to consider that there is anything else is ridiculous or nonsense.

My position is that there may be aspects of life and consciousness which are at this time unknown to science.

My reference to true self relates to spiritual exercise and is usually applicable only when the assumption of the existence of a "God" is accepted.

However my position is that this exercise is a valid and usefull exercise like yoga, jogging or meditation for example, even if said God doesn't exist (along with heaven or nirvarna).

To address your point, I appreciate how it is medically known how such brain injury effects consciousness. The way I see it is rather like a radio, you are yourself when you are receiving a signal and you can hear the music. However if the tuner does not work or a transistor is broken you don't hear music, or the signal is not being received. In this case you would not be yourself.

But it's so much more subtle than that. We literally have cells, yes, cells,... that are intimately involved with anything from the awareness of teeth, to eyes, to even cartoons. We know about these specific cells in the brain from a condition where the blind and deaf hallucinate very specific shared hallucinations of people with giant teeth, giant eyes, cartoons and other things. You are not only able to wipe out these concepts by damaging the brain. You are able to create them by stimulating these areas of the brain.

If it was merely damaging a signal, this doesn't explain how a signal can also be broadcast and played. This is adding things to you that otherwise would not be there.

People don't just assume such powerful and defined personal concepts about the nature of reality for no reason. You obviously need to pretend the world is the way you see it and I don't think it's possible to have you consider you're wrong beyond a token nod of appreciation.