Ed Murder is fine ... if you're a woman

[Naive1000]

I agree that society, the police and maybe even the courts may not treat domestic violence against men as seriously as it should. But the answer to this is to confront that issue, not to downplay violence against women too.

I'm not trying to downplay violence against women I was just refuting a point that someone else made that it was almost all male on female violence which is untrue. I think domestic violence is a serious issue that should be addressed more thoroughly by police and the courts. What I don't agree with is allowing someone to walk when they've committed a crime.

 

[ponderingturtle]

What difference does it make to this case what the relative split of gender is in domestic violence. If you've had years of being beaten and abused, what difference does it make to you that other people of your gender do the same thing to their spouses?

Because when people see a woman abused in public they become involved when they see a woman abusing a man they figure he deserves it.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Because when people see a woman abused in public they become involved when they see a woman abusing a man they figure he deserves it.

Again, not sure what that has to do with this case. Was there any public abuse with intervention by members of the public in this case?

 

[Naive1000]

If there is no strong evidence of abuse presented, its likely that the defence would not accept it as mitigation.

But, they have before. The preachers wife who shot him, with a shotgun, while sleeping. She walked even though there was no credible evidence of abuse. (Link)

“Justice was definitely not served here,” Pirro told Vieira. “You had a preacher, who by all accounts was loved in his community, who was shot in the back while he slept. You have a woman who says she was abused with no history, no shred of evidence.”(Link).

 

[Naive1000]

Because when people see a woman abused in public they become involved when they see a woman abusing a man they figure he deserves it.

On that related subject:


Also, please feel free to open the topic up. To abuse or DV or anything related. I won't complain and would ask the moderators to allow it.

 

[Information Analyst]

It would seem murders fine if your a woman. I guess men's lives mean nothing in our modern societies.

I think you're overlooking the gender dynamics of homicide. I'll take my own country, because those are the figures - i.e. for England & Wales - I have readily to hand. In the year 2009/10 (April to March), there were 619 homicide victims, of whom 421 were male and 198 were female. Of the male victims, 212 knew the suspect, while 209 did not. Of the female victims, 150 were suspected of being killed by people they knew, but only 48 by strangers. Drilling down further, 21 men were killed by partners or ex-partners, but for women it was 95. Now, obviously there may be a few same-sex partners in there, but the bottom line is that women are almost five times more likely to be killed by an partner or ex than men are. Given that context, it is hardly surprising if a few cases crop up in which women end up killing abusive partners in self-defence, but hardly any where the genders are reversed.

 

[Lamuella]

But, they have before. The preachers wife who shot him, with a shotgun, while sleeping. She walked even though there was no credible evidence of abuse. (Link)

The person in the story you linked to didn't walk, she was given a custodial sentence. You may consider it to be an overly light custodial sentence, but that does not mean she "walked"

 

[ponderingturtle]

Actually there is a good work of evidence that men are much more abused than the statistic tells (just google it), and even in this forum there were article cited estimating that the number of abused men are roughly identical to the number of abused women (that one you can discard if you want I am too lazy to look it up again), but culturally men are much much less likely to report it.

There is also the factor that if their partner starts hitting them and they defend themselves they are likely to be the one charged. I remember one woman who ran a battered womens shelter realizing that many of the women there had been frequently the initiators of violence in their relationship.

The thing is that many feminists and others find their sexist stereotypes comforting in these cases.

 

[Naive1000]

The person in the story you linked to didn't walk, she was given a custodial sentence. You may consider it to be an overly light custodial sentence, but that does not mean she "walked"

She got a couple months in a mental health facility. That's walked in my book for murder.

 

[Lamuella]

She got a couple months in a mental health facility. That's walked in my book for murder.

She served five months in county jail and two in a secure psychiatric hospital (which is basically a jail with doctors). Also, she wasn't convicted of murder.

EDIT: I should say, I'm not defending her sentence. I think it was too light, and from various reports so does she. What I'm trying to do is clarify what she was actually sentenced to.

 

[Naive1000]

She served five months in county jail and two in a secure psychiatric hospital (which is basically a jail with doctors). Also, she wasn't convicted of murder.

EDIT: I should say, I'm not defending her sentence. I think it was too light, and from various reports so does she. What I'm trying to do is clarify what she was actually sentenced to.

Actually she was sentenced to three years, but it was magically reduced to what you stated plus probation for the rest. Nice for murder. And I say murder because she got off because of abuse even though there was no evidence. My skepticism runs high on this one.

 

[Naive1000]

...[snip]... Given that context, it is hardly surprising if a few cases crop up in which women end up killing abusive partners in self-defence, but hardly any where the genders are reversed.

You know it's funny, but I remember reading an FBI report that wives were more likely to hire or find a third party to kill their spouses for them. This would seem to skew the results and make them much harder to prosecute which is what most of the stats are based on. I'll have to try and find that to support my argument (I read it quite a while back, so give me a little time).

ETA:

The story raises an interesting sidebar. Most people are unaware of the fact that although women rarely kill their intimate partners directly, that doesn’t mean they don’t harbour intentions that are equally murderous. Women are far more likely to use surrogates to kill their boyfriends or husbands than men. They either hire hit men, or get their male relatives or new boyfriends to do the deed.

But here’s the rub: When these murders succeed, the homicide is not classified under the heading of Domestic Violence, but as a general homicide. As a result, the stats on spousal homicides don’t reflect a true picture. Following on the passage of this Sacramento legislation, it would seem like a good idea to review the classification criteria regarding spousal homicides to reflect the reality so vividly illustrated in this story. (Link)

 

[Lamuella]

Actually she was sentenced to three years, but it was magically reduced to what you stated plus probation for the rest. Nice for murder. And I say murder because she got off because of abuse even though there was no evidence. My skepticism runs high on this one.

Again, she wasn't convicted of murder. 12 people listened to a lot more of the case than we did and found her guilty of voluntary manslaughter, not murder.

Juries get it wrong sometimes, certainly, but if we're talking about a sentence for a crime, we need to talk about what she was sentenced for, not what you think she did.

 

[leftysergeant]

It would seem murders fine if your a woman. I guess men's lives mean nothing in our modern societies.

She had everyright to fear that he would track her down and kill her. It's an ethnic thing.

 

[WildCat]

I think it's justified if police are aware of the abuse and did nothing. But if the first claims of abuse come after the murder I have my doubts.

 

[sgtbaker]

It would seem murders fine if your a woman. I guess men's lives mean nothing in our modern societies.

Austrailian law has a provocation defense. According to the story, he provoked her. This does not excuse her behavior but if provocation is proven, the murder charge is reduced to manslaughter.

There is a statutory defence of provocation in NSW law; if provocation is proven and the person would have otherwise been convicted of murder, directs the jury to find the defendant not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Australian_law)

In the article, they stated that this is the 3rd case in seven years. I hardly call that Australia condoning women murdering their husbands.

 

[joesixpack]

After reading that story I'm not so convinced that she was a battered wife. The police had been called to the house three times before for domestic altercations, yet no one was ever arrested? Maybe I missed something in the article but it's not clear that she was a battered wife at all, just that she claimed to be so. Also, when police are called for a domestic battery incident here in the US, someone is going to be taken into custody. I think this claim has more to do with a legal defense than it has to do with reality.

It is exceptionally rare for an abuser to be killed by his/her victim. Domestic violence is cause for arrest, and cause for leaving, but I don't see it as justification for murder.

 

[Darat]

Again, she wasn't convicted of murder. 12 people listened to a lot more of the case than we did and found her guilty of voluntary manslaughter, not murder.
Juries get it wrong sometimes, certainly, but if we're talking about a sentence for a crime, we need to talk about what she was sentenced for, not what you think she did.

Not knowing the details it may even have been that the jury really were only given the direction of a conviction for manslaughter; murder may never have been on the cards. If that's so it could be this was a case prosecuted because it was in the "public interest" (under the general heading of "people shouldn't kill other people") rather than because of concerns about public safety and the like.

 

[SanityGap]

After reading that story I'm not so convinced that she was a battered wife. The police had been called to the house three times before for domestic altercations, yet no one was ever arrested? Maybe I missed something in the article but it's not clear that she was a battered wife at all, just that she claimed to be so. Also, when police are called for a domestic battery incident here in the US, someone is going to be taken into custody. I think this claim has more to do with a legal defense than it has to do with reality.

It is exceptionally rare for an abuser to be killed by his/her victim. Domestic violence is cause for arrest, and cause for leaving, but I don't see it as justification for murder.

Here in the UK the attitude used to be that domestic violence was not a police matter (my wife is from the North East and had direct experience of this). Fortunately that has changed.
Yes, domestic violence is cause for arrest. It may be cause for leaving but that option is not always easy or even open to the victim. Both of the women I know (wifey being one) who have been subject to long term abuse and torture (no other word for it) have left with nothing, just the clothes they stood up in.
As for justification for murder, I see no one here saying this but it is a reason and cause of manslaughter.

 

[joesixpack]

She had everyright to fear that he would track her down and kill her. It's an ethnic thing.

Wow, your sexism seems to be used to rationalize your racism. You should really think on that a bit.