Ed Murder is fine ... if you're a woman

[Professor Yaffle]

Actually there is a good work of evidence that men are much more abused than the statistic tells (just google it), and even in this forum there were article cited estimating that the number of abused men are roughly identical to the number of abused women (that one you can discard if you want I am too lazy to look it up again), but culturally men are much much less likely to report it.

Again, I fail to see the relevance to this case.

 

[SanityGap]

You have no idea what I know, so I find your condescending attitude insulting. And I made no glib statements, I just find the idea that murder is the only option a complete fabrication.

@Wolfman: You might want to check your facts -- More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals About Domestic Violence Against Men

No insult intended, apologies.
In the UK 89% of domestic violence victims are female (Walby & Allen 2004)
Two women are killed every week by their partner. So it's ok for women to be put in fear of their life and even lose that life but to fight back and possibly kill the abuser is wrong?
To say that they could leave or get a divorce is a glib statement. It is far from easy to do either of those. When my wife finally escaped (after four attempts and severe beatings as punishment) she spent a year in hiding while her maniac husband searched the country for her. He even lied to the police to get them to help in the search. It should be mentioned that he was outwardly a respectable engineering manager of a large company, not the image some have of this type of person.

 

[Lamuella]

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

Why don't you lift yours.

Classy.

Yes, because men are never abused the statistics could never have a bias or miss out on the fact that our culture tells men they can't be victims, that would never effect the holy government stats.

Then show me evidence that they do, rather than anecdotes about men sucking it up.

Why not try a bit of skepticism, and look into male abuse a bit.

If you have actual information rather than anecdotes, I'll be more than happy to look at it.

But in the end none of it matters because homicide is still never the answer, nor should society ever accept it.

and society didn't accept it in this case, hence this woman being convicted of manslaughter.

The court didn't say this woman't actions were acceptable, they merely took into account mitigating circumstances, which is what courts are supposed to do.

And who cares if you lived 20miles away; what does that have to do with anything?

well, it has to do with you asking if I lived in your state.

 

[Naive1000]

No insult intended, apologies.
In the UK 89% of domestic violence victims are female (Walby & Allen 2004)
Two women are killed every week by their partner. So it's ok for women to be put in fear of their life and even lose that life but to fight back and possibly kill the abuser is wrong?
To say that they could leave or get a divorce is a glib statement. It is far from easy to do either of those. When my wife finally escaped (after four attempts and severe beatings as punishment) she spent a year in hiding while her maniac husband searched the country for her. He even lied to the police to get them to help in the search. It should be mentioned that he was outwardly a respectable engineering manager of a large company, not the image some have of this type of person.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife and I agree that the police aren't doing their jobs in many cases. I don't think a woman or man should ever have to suffer abuse and that the government needs to work better at protecting the abused from their abusers. But still, I can only see self-defense as a reason to kill someone. Setting them on fire in their sleep is just wrong, but walking free after words is like ignoring it ever happened.

 

[Darat]

What difference does it make to this case what the relative split of gender is in domestic violence. If you've had years of being beaten and abused, what difference does it make to you that other people of your gender do the same thing to their spouses?

I don't think there should be a difference but I'm sure I was reading some research (linked to a thread from here??) that indicated that there is a difference in how such cases are judged and responded to by our institutions depending on the gender of the victim and abuser. If that is the case then that would be wrong.

 

[SanityGap]

Something to bear in mind when looking at statistics about this subject.

"One misleading statistic, which is often repeated, is that - while one in four women experience domestic violence - so do one in six men. These figures are, however, based on single incidents, of a criminal nature, and without regard to:

severity of violence
whether or not it was repeated - and if so, how often
the complex pattern of overlapping abuse of various kinds
the context in which it took place.

They also exclude sexual assaults - which are overwhelmingly perpetrated against women, by men - many of whom are partners or former partners of the victims. Finally, emotional abuse - which is often not regarded as a crime, but which survivors often find even more destructive - is excluded from these statistics."

http://www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic_violence_topic.asp?section=0001000100220036

 

[Darat]

Again, I fail to see the relevance to this case.

I think Aepervius was widening the discussion a tad. The wider point is whether or not the gender plays a role in making such a decision rather than the specific merit of this particular case.

From the limited reports of this case I can understand why the judgement to suspend the jail part of her sentence was made and I would support such a call whether it was a woman or a man. But does society?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I don't think there should be a difference but I'm sure I was reading some research (linked to a thread from here??) that indicated that there is a difference in how such cases are judged and responded to by our institutions depending on the gender of the victim and abuser. If that is the case then that would be wrong.

Oh I would agree with that, but the OPs argument seems to be that this woman shouldn't be able to use this defence successfully because women abuse men too.

Maybe I just see the defence of provocation as a potentially more interesting discussion than a derail into the old argument about who abuses who more.

 

[Naive1000]

Classy.

Then show me evidence that they do, rather than anecdotes about men sucking it up.

If you have actual information rather than anecdotes, I'll be more than happy to look at it.

and society didn't accept it in this case, hence this woman being convicted of manslaughter.

The court didn't say this woman't actions were acceptable, they merely took into account mitigating circumstances, which is what courts are supposed to do.

well, it has to do with you asking if I lived in your state.

Yea, just as classy as acting like my experience means nothing.

Also, how exactly am I suppose to prove something when reporting those things is frowned upon in the community? The government wouldn't even allow research into male victims of domestic abuse until just the last few years.

Although many victims of domestic violence resist reporting the violence, male victims have particular issues that most female victims don't have to contend with. Often victims of any gender don't want to report because they are embarassed, or they are afraid of making the problem worse (when so-and-so gets out of jail they're going to be REALLY mad), or they don't want the abuser arrested (for many reasons). Male victims have to contend with "machismo" - what their friends and family will think if it is discovered that they "let" a partner abuse them. There is also an element of total disbelief - not only from the victim, but sometimes confirmed by friends, family, police, and medical personnel - especially when those persons are also male - as victims are unwittingly, yet strongly, encouraged to minimize the importance and impact of what they experienced (oh it's not that bad, or, it's only a scratch). Trying to report once, and meeting this reaction is a primary function of why so many men never report again, or never report at all. Instead, they'll make excuses (oh, I got that scratch while trimming the bushes, or, look at this bruise I got playing football), or try to escape being around the abuser by dedicating their time to work or other pursuits as much as possible. (Link)

 

[Lamuella]

Setting them on fire in their sleep is just wrong, but walking free after words is like ignoring it ever happened.

The incident in the OP didn't happen while anyone was asleep, it happened during an argument.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

BTW, the British Crime Survey (which does not rely on reporting to the police) indicates that ~1 in 5 women have been subject to domestic violence and for men the figure is ~ 1 in 10. It may be that underreporting still affects the survey, but they do use the same methodology they use in collecting figures on sexual abuse/assaults which is thought to encourage much wider disclosure.

http://broken-rainbow.org.uk/research/Dv crime survey.pdf

ETA: They also give figures on repeat victimisation - in the last 12 months, the mean number of incidents for female victims was 20, and for males 7 (medians 4 and 2 respectively).

 

[Lamuella]

BTW, the British Crime Survey (which does not rely on reporting to the police) indicates that ~1 in 5 women have been subject to domestic violence and for men the figure is ~ 1 in 10. It may be that underreporting still affects the survey, but they do use the same methodology they use in collecting figures on sexual abuse/assaults which is thought to encourage much wider disclosure.

http://broken-rainbow.org.uk/research/Dv crime survey.pdf

this is precisely the sort of information I was looking for. Thank you.

 

[Naive1000]

Something to bear in mind when looking at statistics about this subject.
...[snip]...
http://www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic_violence_topic.asp?section=0001000100220036

You post your source I can post mine: 835,000 men a year

Approximately 95% of all youth reporting staff sexual misconduct said they had been victimized by female staff. In 2008, 42% of staff in state juvenile facilities were female.(Link)

In general, 86% of the victims of female sexual predators aren't believed, so the crimes go unreported and don't get prosecuted. (Link)

Sexual violence against men and boys is also widely ignored, but this is just leading into oppression olympics here.

 

[Naive1000]

The incident in the OP didn't happen while anyone was asleep, it happened during an argument.

Sorry, I might of mixed the stories up this is the second one I've read about a woman torching her husband.

 

[Belz...]

in many situations, victims of domestic violence cannot leave. There may be children involved, there may be financial constraints, there may be cultural and psychological barriers. They may live in fear of a spouse hunting them down. They may have literally nowhere they can go.

What you are describing is a perception of the person in question, not whether there actually is nowhere to go, though.

 

[SanityGap]

I'm sorry to hear about your wife

Thank you. She is a splendid woman.

You should consider the psychological effects of long term abuse and how this will finally be resolved. I can only imagine how years of being dominated and abused would finally be used to fuel anger and violence when the woman (or man) finally "snapped".
This is not a get out of jail free card, it is mitigating circumstances. As it should be.

 

[SanityGap]

You post your source I can post mine:

I did. Walby and Allen 2004, I missed the link. Prof Yaffle posted it.

 

[Naive1000]

Thank you. She is a splendid woman.

You should consider the psychological effects of long term abuse and how this will finally be resolved. I can only imagine how years of being dominated and abused would finally be used to fuel anger and violence when the woman (or man) finally "snapped".
This is not a get out of jail free card, it is mitigating circumstances. As it should be.

I understand mitigating circumstance and would agree that it should be valid as part of the defense but these women are walking free with no real punishment. To me this just seems to encourage this kind of thing. Also, what happens when there was no real abuse but it's used as an excuse to get away with murder?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I agree that society, the police and maybe even the courts may not treat domestic violence against men as seriously as it should. But the answer to this is to confront that issue, not to downplay violence against women too.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I understand mitigating circumstance and would agree that it should be valid as part of the defense but these women are walking free with no real punishment. To me this just seems to encourage this kind of thing. Also, what happens when there was no real abuse but it's used as an excuse to get away with murder?

If there is no strong evidence of abuse presented, its likely that the defence would not accept it as mitigation.