More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)

[krazyKemist]

Where has that guy Ullman gone ?

I wanted to discuss his important chemistry paper... and the definition of the word "nano"...

the Kemist

 

[Michael C]

Where has that guy Ullman gone ?

A while ago in this thread, Gully/Ullman said he'd be away for two weeks. In a few days we'll see if he has any more to say.

 

[Mojo]

Manioberoi seems to have done a runner as well.

 

[George 152]

It was a fruitful discussion.
This real life case provides food for thought and hence I am posting it here:

"American Homeopath (_Am_Hom) 1998
As if one patient (Greg Bedayn) Angustura vera Case About six years ago there was an article in the San Francisco Chronicle about an epidemic that was killing the northern California sheep population. They referred to it as "Ergot poisoning" and one of the finest schools of Veterinary Science in the country, the University of California at Davis, had thrown up their hands in frustration and called it "an act of God," or something similarly provocative for a homeopath.

Well seeing that the claim is for 'ergot poisoning' I'll tell you how to cure it.
Put the sheep in a well eaten out (little or no grass) paddock for several days until the ergot is out of their system.
We had to deal with this every year as our main stock fodder was Ryegrass.
Symptoms were the sheep moving in tight cirles and losing balance.
Easily treated and definitely not fatal

 

[Rolfe]

It can be disabling or fatal. The poison causes the blood vessels to constrict and you can get bits of the extremities turning black or falling off. It's nasty.

But I really don't see the guys at Davis throwing up their hands in despair. It's well understood, and managing an outbreak is well understood.

Rolfe.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Manioberoi seems to have done a runner as well.

I think I have said it before, but when I first started paying serious attention to homeopathy I was very circumspect in my criticism, but time and again we see the same pattern of evasion and cowardice as soon as tricky questions are posed. It's not just that they are stupid or ignorant, but that they actively flee from the opportunity to examine their beliefs.

 

[George 152]

The only reason that animals could reach such an advanced stage is a lack of knowledge and very poor stockmanship.
Such as displayed by homeopathetic practicioners...

 

[JJM]

I don't recall if Gully/Ullman brought this up here. Over at Orac's, he submitted that a 2005 article in Chest verified the use of a homeopathic prep. Today, Orac has analyzed that article (and refers to other analyses) and found it wanting. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/07/homeopathy_in_thecringeicu_1.php

 

[krazyKemist]

What worries me is his observation about conventional medicine being slowly and quite stealthily invaded by woo. I've obseved this too. In Canada, we even have at least one university that boasts a chiropratic faculty.

One culprit for this here is the significant reduction of scientific education a doctor receives. Basic science has been taken out of the curriculum to make place for a debatable patient-doctor relationship segment. I say debatable because the capacity to deal with patients should be tested at the beginning, as a human trait. If you can't do it, better not be a doctor.

As a result of this, doctors rarely even know how clinical research is done. And dont ask them how a drug is developped ! Most doctors could not guess what I was doing when I told them I was a organic chemist. How could they tell if someone is using scientific terms abusively ?

I wonder if medical education has been modified the same way elsewhere ? In the patch-adams patient-relashionship way ?

the Kemist

 

[JJM]

What worries me is his observation about conventional medicine being slowly and quite stealthily invaded by woo. I've obseved this too. In Canada, we even have at least one university that boasts a chiropratic faculty.

Are you sure? A few years ago York U. almost merged with a chiro school; but then declined. If it had gone through, it would have been the first such combination. You can read about it at www.quackwatch.com .

As for Orac's observation that woo is invading medicine. If you go back to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ and search for "medical education" (the quote marks are important) you can read quite a bit about it.

One culprit for this here is the significant reduction of scientific education a doctor receives. Basic science has been taken out of the curriculum to make place for a debatable patient-doctor relationship segment. {snip}

As a result of this, doctors rarely even know how clinical research is done. And dont ask them how a drug is developped ! Most doctors could not guess what I was doing when I told them I was a organic chemist. How could they tell if someone is using scientific terms abusively ? {snip}

the Kemist

The problem begins before medical school. While I hate philosophy- science has two components 1) a method of obtaining knowledge and 2) the body of knowledge thus obtained. In college, we emphasize the body of knowledge over the method. That gives students the idea science is all about authoritative claims. Then, when medical students encounter a chiropractor (homeopath, acupuncturist etc.), they are unprepared to analyze claims enunciated by another "authority."

 

[krazyKemist]

Are you sure? A few years ago York U. almost merged with a chiro school; but then declined. If it had gone through, it would have been the first such combination. You can read about it at www.quackwatch.com .

Yep, quite sure. Went there a couple months ago for a conference. It is the Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières (UQTR), Quebec, Canada.

http://www.uqtr.ca

We in quebec do love to be the first ones to do stupid things. Such as stopping failing elementary school students when they are not up to scratch.

the Kemist

 

[manioberoi]

I don't recall if Gully/Ullman brought this up here. Over at Orac's, he submitted that a 2005 article in Chest verified the use of a homeopathic prep. Today, Orac has analyzed that article (and refers to other analyses) and found it wanting. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/07/homeopathy_in_thecringeicu_1.php

Welcome back after your well earned rest of two weeks.
After reading Orac's comments I would tend to agree with you that there are serious holes in that study.
To eliminate such fatal errors the discussion had focussed on ways and means to set up a reproducable, verifiable and scientifically acceptable series of pilot studies in homeopathic treatment - if this results in acceptable levels of curative effects being observed - full scale series of homeopathic trials could be set up to investigate the efficacy of homeopathic treatments - none of these studies would be negated merely on the ground that they are chemically tested (at the present stage of technology) to be placebo.

Your valuable comments on the post #485 #520 #534 would add value to this discussion.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Meanwhile...

Which do you want to admit, either homeopathy is scientifically testable or your entire clincal case record must be ignored? There is no third option. Which do you want to choose?

 

[steenkh]

Meanwhile...

Which do you want to admit, either homeopathy is scientifically testable or your entire clincal case record must be ignored? There is no third option. Which do you want to choose?

By now it is clear that the answer is:

 

[kieran]

Welcome back after your well earned rest of two weeks.

Seconded.

After reading Orac's comments I would tend to agree with you that there are serious holes in that study.
To eliminate such fatal errors the discussion had focussed on ways and means to set up a reproducable, verifiable and scientifically acceptable series of pilot studies in homeopathic treatment - if this results in acceptable levels of curative effects being observed - full scale series of homeopathic trials could be set up to investigate the efficacy of homeopathic treatments - none of these studies would be negated merely on the ground that they are chemically tested (at the present stage of technology) to be placebo.

I agree with virtually all of this paragraph. However, I'm a bit confused by the bit at the end so I'll hold judgement while I await clarification. I would be grateful if you could elaborate on what you are saying with your "none of these studies would be negated ..." caveat. Can you give me an example of a situation that could arise in which this condition would be activated?

Your valuable comments on the post #485 #520 #534 would add value to this discussion.

JJM - I think all of the posts manioberoi listed above have already been commented on by others - but manioberoi seems to need a personal statement from you on these ... I think you have his respect/attention ...

 

[Mojo]

JJM - I think all of the posts manioberoi listed above have already been commented on by others - but manioberoi seems to need a personal statement from you on these ... I think you have his respect/attention ...

Actually, the "welcome back after your well earned rest of two weeks" makes me suspect that manioberoi has mistaken JJM for JamesGully.

 

[kieran]

Actually, the "welcome back after your well earned rest of two weeks" makes me suspect that manioberoi has mistaken JJM for JamesGully.

I was also wondering that. I can remember JamesGully telling us he wouldn't be around for a couple of weeks ... but I also looked back to see when JJM last posted in this thread before yesterday and it seemed about two weeks - but I am too lazy to get exact dates ...

I am having slightly scary thoughts .... do we have any evidence that JJM and JG are not in fact the same person?

... or maybe they went on holiday together ...

... or maybe it's just coincidence - a bit like when homoepathic remedies "work" ...

 

[JJM]

JJM - I think all of the posts manioberoi listed above have already been commented on by others - but manioberoi seems to need a personal statement from you on these ... I think you have his respect/attention ...

I don't know how you people can correspond with him, I find him incoherent. How is that for a personal statement?

Actually, the "welcome back after your well earned rest of two weeks" makes me suspect that manioberoi has mistaken JJM for JamesGully.

The "well-earned rest" from engaging homeopaths continues.

I was also wondering that. I can remember JamesGully telling us he wouldn't be around for a couple of weeks ... but I also looked back to see when JJM last posted in this thread before yesterday and it seemed about two weeks - but I am too lazy to get exact dates ...

I am having slightly scary thoughts .... do we have any evidence that JJM and JG are not in fact the same person?
{snip}

I am not JG. Think about it. Remember that one never sees Superman and Clark Kent at the same place. Yet, I am right here with the homeopaths. Anyone with two ears to hear with can see we are distinct.

Gee, that logic makes me sound like a homeopath ...

 

[kieran]

I am not JG. Think about it. Remember that one never sees Superman and Clark Kent at the same place.

... are you saying that Clark Kent is Superman? (I think you could have used a spoiler there ... I've always wanted to use a spoiler on these posts but (i) I don't know how, and (ii) I have nothing suitable to "hide".)

Yet, I am right here with the homeopaths. Anyone with two ears to hear with can see we are distinct.

Gee, that logic makes me sound like a homeopath ...

(Completely ignoring the presence of JJM as it would mess up my ill-formed ideas ...) I'm starting to form a hypothesis here ... when we dilute the presence of JamesGully to infinitely small levels (i.e. he goes away for two weeks) then there is a mechanism by which the threads lose the memory of JJM .. and he also disappears. Check it out for yourself on this thread. It's a kind of inverse homoeopathy but for "people" on "message boards". I might start my own journal and lists lots of anecdotes to illustrate it, and discussing mechanisms by which message boards could support the concept of forgetfulness. I might possibly make some money if I sell them as "natural" message boards ...

 

[kieran]

I don't know how you people can correspond with him, I find him incoherent. How is that for a personal statement?

I think his level of "incoherency", whilst somewhat oscillitary, is tending downwards. He appears to have (for the moment) given up trying to claim that homoeopathy is untestable, and I am hoping that that it is slowly sinking in that his cut'n'paste anecdotes are irrelevant.

manioberoi - what was wrong/missing from the responses you got from others here to posts #485 #520 #534?
(It looks like you are going to have to move on without JJM's direct feedback.)