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Montague Keen

Now, is it my imagination? Or did Claus just skirt the issue yet again by ignoring the good faith offer I just made, exactly as he did over two years ago? Can you say E V A S I O N? I'd appreciate a little backing here from the honest skeptics.

No evasion on my part. No, I am not in the US, but that shouldn't stop you from providing the name of the psychic. Why would it?

Let's hear it.

But why should I be surprised, when Valyou offered to actually pay your way to....was it California?.....to get a personal reading with a psychic medium, also to be paid by him/her, right? I believe you flatly refused the offer because you didn't trust Valyou to keep your identity a secret, or something like that.

Why don't you, for once in your life, at least aim to get the facts straight, instead of continue to rely on your faulty memory?

I would not tell her my name and address, because it would open up for the possibility of hot-reading. She offered to set me up with a psychic of her choice, yet she demanded to know details about my personal life?

You may claim I am a lot of things, neofight, but gullible is not one of them.

Let's hear that name. Stop playing games. Stop appealing to emotions. Stop appealing to popularity. Let's hear that name.

You know it. You demand that we visit such a psychic. Will you provide us with that name?
 
I had a friend a few years back that had a reading that impressed her from a specific medium. She is a well-educated and *very* smart lady. She came to me and asked my opinion regarding the reading, indicating that the medium had told her specific information that "she couldn't have known." She asked if I would come with her on susequent readings, so I did. Before going, however, I picked up some books on the subject so that I could better see whether anything was going on.

And? What did you determine was going on exactly? What was the nature of the information that convinced your friend that the medium was genuine in the first place? Did she say it was specific, probative information? Or simply a bunch of mentalist patter? I have no way of evaluating this medium that your friend went to, but just as with the case of Jeff Corey's friend, who thought that JE gave her a good reading, it's entirely possible that your friend reversed her favorable position of the medium for no reason other than out of her respect for your opinion. Sort of like (or exactly like) peer pressure and/or bullying.

Regarding mediumship, unlike the cold-reader's method of asking who in the group something applied to, as it appeared you did at the Halloween party, ("Is that making sense to anyone?") a real medium like JE would zero in on an area (in a audience of thousands) and eventually on a particular person, and once he had the right individual, the things he told them would apply to them.

Also, he would mention from the onset if it were a female, a male, a father or mother figure, or a sister, brother, or same age cousin or friend, etc., that was coming through. Or sadly, at times, he might bring through a child someone may have lost.

He then would normally offer a name that was connected to that person. Then he usually was able to pinpoint the type of disease or trauma that caused the death of that same person. So right there, all those things that a medium does as a matter of course, demonstrates how different it is from what a cold-reader would do.

A cold-reader would be thrilled enough to get a name correct, without further pushing his luck by offering a guess at what their relationship to the sitter may have been, or even more risky, declaring what they think that person died from. AND, after that, JE would very often bring up a particular incident, or location, or important anniversary, or the name of the sitter or other family names or names of pets, describing the animal etc......all related to the same spirit they began with. And for me, that is the basic difference between what a medium does, and what a mentalist does. The nature of the info is very different.

And no offense, NA, but that reading you referenced was not nearly as good as you seem to believe it to be. Seriously. By far, your best hit in that reading was the name "Rose", but didn't that piece of information turn out to be hot-reading? I thought you mentioned that fact somewhere.


So despite the fact that I have sat through readings with the exact same medium, the readings don't count somehow because I wasn't the one paying?

No, not because you weren't the one paying. Because you weren't the one being read. In most cases, of course, that would be one and the same, but if you had a friend who was a medium, just to put forth an example, I'm sure he probably wouldn't charge you for passing on a message. Having to pay for a reading doesn't make it any more or less accurate than one you didn't pay for.

Of course, if this person claiming to be a medium really wasn't all that good, it's entirely possible that you did your friend a favor. There's no way I can know one way or another whether they were a fake or not.

But see the difference here, neo (and why I brouhgt this up) -- I say that *I* have looked at the other side, but you have decided that, whatever I have done, I need to do more.

Well, as you know, I wouldn't dream of telling someone what they need to do. I've just expressed surprise that none of you have done it. I think if I were in your position, I would feel compelled to do so. That's all I'm saying.

When I said "registered", I'm not sure if that's the correct term. It's probably "certified", not "registered". Whatever. I mean someone who comes with an official recommendation. I know I've come across such lists back in the day when I was more into the topic. Seek and ye shall find.

I've spent enough time and money on it. I've looked at professional transcripts, I've talked to enough people, I've experienced readings, given readings, and read transcripts of others. That was all on my dime. But that isn't enough to count as "investigating on my own."

So be it then.

Well, I am through jumping through hoops. I've done my time on this topic. Anything else, let's have someone else front at least part of the money.

There are a lot of people registered here. If everyone would chip in $5 or $10 or so, I'm sure you would have enough money to pay for a private reading. That much I would agree to. :)
 
Anyone living in the NYC/Long Island area who is interested in getting the name and phone number of that psychic medium I mentioned earlier, please feel free to send me a PM.
 
Why don't you, for once in your life, at least aim to get the facts straight, instead of continue to rely on your faulty memory?

I would not tell her my name and address, because it would open up for the possibility of hot-reading. She offered to set me up with a psychic of her choice, yet she demanded to know details about my personal life?

That's just plain silly, Claus. I believe the reason she wanted your name and address was so she could send you your airline ticket. I think she even suggested that you might have it sent to a friend's address instead. For obvious security reasons, the airline ticket needed to be in your own name. I'm sure if you cooperated a bit more, you and Valyou could have come up with some sort of plan you both could have lived with.

The group sitting, I believe, was to be held by medium Brian Hurst. Nobody was interested in running to Brian with your name and address, Claus. You could have used an alias with Brian. Clancie even offered to pick you up at the airport and bring you a peanut butter sandwich to boot for heaven's sake. You turned it all down because you couldn't bring yourself to trust anyone. How sad to be so cynical.
 
Anyone living in the NYC/Long Island area who is interested in getting the name and phone number of that psychic medium I mentioned earlier, please feel free to send me a PM.

Why does it have to be secret?

That's just plain silly, Claus. I believe the reason she wanted your name and address was so she could send you your airline ticket. I think she even suggested that you might have it sent to a friend's address instead. For obvious security reasons, the airline ticket needed to be in your own name. I'm sure if you cooperated a bit more, you and Valyou could have come up with some sort of plan you both could have lived with.

No, no, no. Valyou acknowledged the possibility of hot-reading, and said that the airline ticket could be in a different name than mine. That, of course, was unacceptable. Me, not being a US citizen, flying under a false name, after 9-11? Yeah, right.

This, of course, was ridiculed by you.

The group sitting, I believe, was to be held by medium Brian Hurst. Nobody was interested in running to Brian with your name and address, Claus. You could have used an alias with Brian. Clancie even offered to pick you up at the airport and bring you a peanut butter sandwich to boot for heaven's sake. You turned it all down because you couldn't bring yourself to trust anyone. How sad to be so cynical.

With the known record of psychics, why should I be required to trust anyone involved with this? It is no wonder you are cheated by psychic after psychic, neofight: You are all too willing to hand over your money and abandon your emotional security to these scammers.

And answer the questions.
 
And? What did you determine was going on exactly? What was the nature of the information that convinced your friend that the medium was genuine in the first place? Did she say it was specific, probative information? Or simply a bunch of mentalist patter? I have no way of evaluating this medium that your friend went to, but just as with the case of Jeff Corey's friend, who thought that JE gave her a good reading, it's entirely possible that your friend reversed her favorable position of the medium for no reason other than out of her respect for your opinion. Sort of like (or exactly like) peer pressure and/or bullying.

You have no way of evaluating what happened, but already have explanations going? You know neither me or my friend, were not present for the sessions, have no transcript or even a summary of what occurred, but are already ready to speculate in order to "save" the medium?

The information that my friend was told was not as specific as she believed, nor had it been given to her unprompted, at least at the sessions that I attended. She, like lots of bright people that are not familiar with the techniques, gave out information that she was not aware of and validated "hits" as being specific when, in reality, they weren't.

There was no peer pressure or bullying -- there was a transcript to look at. Unless you have knowledge of the process, it is easy to be impressed; that is why so many mediums make money.

You don't maintain that all mediums have actual ability, do you? Because many fakes have people that swear by them -- so the fact that someone is impressed with a reading does not necessarily mean anything. Nor does someone later changing their mind mean that they have been bullied into it.

Regarding mediumship, unlike the cold-reader's method of asking who in the group something applied to, as it appeared you did at the Halloween party, ("Is that making sense to anyone?") a real medium like JE would zero in on an area (in a audience of thousands) and eventually on a particular person, and once he had the right individual, the things he told them would apply to them.

If you remember the thread, that person was precisely who I aimed the Rose thing at. I could have just as easily picked her out, but avoided it at the party to avoid suspicion.

Also, he would mention from the onset if it were a female, a male, a father or mother figure, or a sister, brother, or same age cousin or friend, etc., that was coming through. Or sadly, at times, he might bring through a child someone may have lost.

Again, I could have done all of that. Sadly.


He then would normally offer a name that was connected to that person. Then he usually was able to pinpoint the type of disease or trauma that caused the death of that same person. So right there, all those things that a medium does as a matter of course, demonstrates how different it is from what a cold-reader would do.

I am not interested in rehashing the perennial debate on how many times this actually happens, what is or is not edited, etc. I am also not interested in trying to convince you of anything; I simply have too many things on my plate, and my interest in cold-reading, except where it affects my friends or family, is just not there any more.

And no offense, NA, but that reading you referenced was not nearly as good as you seem to believe it to be. Seriously. By far, your best hit in that reading was the name "Rose", but didn't that piece of information turn out to be hot-reading? I thought you mentioned that fact somewhere.

Well, the history is in the thread. And that reading was judged -- not just by me -- as the best one offered in that thread, which included a number of "porfessional" readings. Even Clancie seemed interested in it until she learned it was just me, at which point every mediumship fan decided it was less impressive.

Well, as you know, I wouldn't dream of telling someone what they need to do. I've just expressed surprise that none of you have done it. I think if I were in your position, I would feel compelled to do so. That's all I'm saying.

I don't feel so compelled. I put in a fair amount of time on this, but saw nothing to encourage me to spend any more time or money on it.

When I said "registered", I'm not sure if that's the correct term. It's probably "certified", not "registered". Whatever. I mean someone who comes with an official recommendation. I know I've come across such lists back in the day when I was more into the topic. Seek and ye shall find.

Again, I've spent too much time on it, already.

Even if I visited another ten, no one on the believer side would care (unless I converted). My experience would be dismissed -- just like I may have simply bullied my friend, above. Even if my honesty were credited, instead of continually questioned, it would just be that I had not visited the "right" psychic.

Unless someone can point one out to me that is "guaranteed" before-hand, I just cannot muster the interest. Even then it would be carrying on through momentum or me feeling the need to finish it out, rather than any burning desire to.
 
...the case of Jeff Corey's friend, who thought that JE gave her a good reading, it's entirely possible that your friend reversed her favorable position of the medium for no reason other than out of her respect for your opinion. Sort of like (or exactly like) peer pressure and/or bullying....
Your memory is faulty. I never had a friend who thought Edward gave her a good reading. I have a friend whose sisters were getting ripped off by Edward.
 
True. Like I've said before, I never thought that sort of format, interrupted by commercial breaks, Larry's inane questions/comments, and multiple phone lines to contend with, was the most favorable for mediumship.
Yet you were never able to adequately explain WHY those factors were unfavorable to mediumship. How do multiple phone lines, Larry's questions, commercial breaks affect psychic or spirit communication? I simply do not see how they are factors at all. At the end of the day you've no idea how mediumship works because the mediums themselves can't even give us consistent stories on how the process works.

The only thing I can see is if JE were being pestered, hence breaking his required level of "concentration" in order to communicate and interpret the information he was receiving. But again, this makes the assumption that psychic communication is somehow inherently "difficult" yet where is the justification for that assumption?

You thinking that LKL is not a favorable platform for mediumship, doesn't mean much when you do not explain specifically how that platform affects the actual mediumship process. As always, we're left floating about theories and opinions when in fact, if this was a real process, there would be something more concrete.
 
Your memory is faulty. I never had a friend who thought Edward gave her a good reading. I have a friend whose sisters were getting ripped off by Edward.

Yes, Jeff, I know. My memory is faulty. That's what Claus just said. :rolleyes:

In any case, from what my very faulty memory tells me, your FRIEND'S SISTERS, or at least one of them, (excuse me for not remembering your precise relationship) thought the reading she got from JE was quite good. Knowing how passionate you can be on this subject, I can only imagine (and that's not difficult to do) what you said to her to convince her it was not. :)

I'm pressed for time right now, and like NoZed Avenger, I think I may have spent more time on this subject than I really want to. When I posted here to say hello, the last thing I was planning on doing was to reimmerse myself in this debate. In any case, I'll respond to the last couple of posts when I can, and then probably leave all of you good people to yourselves. Regards, neo.
 
Yes, Jeff, I know. My memory is faulty. That's what Claus just said. :rolleyes:

In any case, from what my very faulty memory tells me, your FRIEND'S SISTERS, or at least one of them, (excuse me for not remembering your precise relationship) thought the reading she got from JE was quite good. Knowing how passionate you can be on this subject, I can only imagine (and that's not difficult to do) what you said to her to convince her it was not...
Now that's the problem. What you imagine - and later convince yourself actually happened- isn't true. In this case you distorted a case where someone asked me for help with a crooked scam artist and turned it into a case of me bullying my friend into changing her beliefs. And now you imagine that I actually talked to the sister or sisters to get them to change their belief. Guess what. It didn't happen.
This illustrates some of the mechanisms the true believers use to protect their beliefs, including confirmation bias, data selection and distorted memory.
 
I'm pressed for time right now, and like NoZed Avenger, I think I may have spent more time on this subject than I really want to. When I posted here to say hello, the last thing I was planning on doing was to reimmerse myself in this debate. In any case, I'll respond to the last couple of posts when I can, and then probably leave all of you good people to yourselves. Regards, neo.

You can run away from the questions, we expect that from you.

But you promised that you would provide the name and phonenumber of the psychic to the person who contacted you via PM, and who is living in the NYC/Long Island area.

Let's see just how honest you are.
 
You can run away from the questions, we expect that from you.

But you promised that you would provide the name and phonenumber of the psychic to the person who contacted you via PM, and who is living in the NYC/Long Island area.

Let's see just how honest you are.

Yes, yes, Claus. Everyone knows you most likely contacted Jeff Corey to ask him to PM me. I've already e-mailed my sister-in-law for the medium's name and phone number, and I'm waiting for her response. Keep your shirt on! :P
 
Yes, yes, Claus. Everyone knows you most likely contacted Jeff Corey to ask him to PM me. I've already e-mailed my sister-in-law for the medium's name and phone number, and I'm waiting for her response. Keep your shirt on! :P

Why does it have to be secret?
 
If Neo wants it to be confidential, sobeit.
Trust me, I'm a skeptik.
It's true.
 
Now that's the problem. What you imagine - and later convince yourself actually happened- isn't true. In this case you distorted a case where someone asked me for help with a crooked scam artist and turned it into a case of me bullying my friend into changing her beliefs. And now you imagine that I actually talked to the sister or sisters to get them to change their belief. Guess what. It didn't happen.
This illustrates some of the mechanisms the true believers use to protect their beliefs, including confirmation bias, data selection and distorted memory.

It illustrates no such thing, Jeff. If I distorted anything, it was not intentional. Nor were those details at all relevant to the gist of the story. The bottom line is basically that the woman you are talking about was very impressed with the reading she got from JE. Is that true, or not? I'm not sure if I could ever locate your original post regarding this over at tvtalkshows, but I believe I got that much right. I think she also went to JE more than once, or at least intended to. Whatever. I don't keep files on anyone's posts, (the way someone we know does) and you told us this years ago.

So your friend asked you to intervene (somehow) to convince his sister (I guess) that JE was a fake. Whether you spoke directly to her, or did it through your friend, is simply irrelevant. In any case, I don't remember it being the woman herself who asked for your help, as was the case with NoZed Avenger's friend. So by nitpicking, you are clouding up the issue, which is, as I stated, that the woman liked her reading until someone convinced her that she didn't. She was probably made to feel foolish for having believed it in the first place.

I just wanted to correct the impression you left that I somehow was misleading anyone with my own post where I mentioned this incident. I got the important stuff right. I also seem to remember once over at tvtalkshows, when we brought up this same issue, you got defensive then as well. Clancie and/or RC could possibly back me up on this if they have an independent memory of it. No big deal. I just didn't like your suggesting that I live in a fantasy world, afraid to question my beliefs. Which, when it comes right down to it, you do, of course, believe. ;)
 
It illustrates no such thing, Jeff. If I distorted anything, it was not intentional. Nor were those details at all relevant to the gist of the story. The bottom line is basically that the woman you are talking about was very impressed with the reading she got from JE. Is that true, or not? I'm not sure if I could ever locate your original post regarding this over at tvtalkshows, but I believe I got that much right. I think she also went to JE more than once, or at least intended to. Whatever. I don't keep files on anyone's posts, (the way someone we know does) and you told us this years ago.

So your friend asked you to intervene (somehow) to convince his sister (I guess) that JE was a fake. Whether you spoke directly to her, or did it through your friend, is simply irrelevant. In any case, I don't remember it being the woman herself who asked for your help, as was the case with NoZed Avenger's friend. So by nitpicking, you are clouding up the issue, which is, as I stated, that the woman liked her reading until someone convinced her that she didn't. She was probably made to feel foolish for having believed it in the first place.

I just wanted to correct the impression you left that I somehow was misleading anyone with my own post where I mentioned this incident. I got the important stuff right. I also seem to remember once over at tvtalkshows, when we brought up this same issue, you got defensive then as well. Clancie and/or RC could possibly back me up on this if they have an independent memory of it. No big deal. I just didn't like your suggesting that I live in a fantasy world, afraid to question my beliefs. Which, when it comes right down to it, you do, of course, believe. ;)

Not nitpicking. You distorted the whole story to make your point, which was that I convinced someone who had a reading by Edward that it wasn't true.
You used the word "bullied". I never talked to the woman, only her sister. You got none of the points right and were either forgetting and distorting what I actually said to fit your opinion. That is often the case with rabid believers. However, I will not take the Danish tack and say you are lying. I am fearful of a Fatwah being launched against me and my family, including the furry ones.
A person called Pam Blizzard once threatened to send Jeff Blizzard, a trained killer, to my door.
 
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