Montague Keen

[voidx]

A little late getting back here. But the internet ate my last reply, and I've been busy the last week or so. Anyway:

Voidx, if for argument's sake we accept the fact that some people have this ability, we, as non-mediums, cannot begin to understand its nature.

Sure we can. It's not unexplainable simply because its within the realm of personal experience. Although it does give it a lot of convinient leeway. Here is another area where explanations differ. Is this truly an ability? Do we all have it to some degree, or do only specific people possess it. Is there a physical attribute that makes one more likely to possess it, or does this too exist in the non-physical plane. As in JE's spirit is attuned blah blah. We only can't understand because mediums do an admittedly poor job of describing it to us.

We either accept the explanations provided by those who claim they are communicating this way, or we don't. You're right. We cannot really know. JE has attempted to use analogies to help us to understand the process.

I don't buy into the black or white position here. It matters not whether I accept them or not, and besides there are degree's of acceptance based on the point of view. JE may very well think he's communicating. But can he be 100% certain that spirit communication is in fact that, and not his own imagination or thoughts playing tricks on him. Again, how does JE differentiate? How is it possible to discern between random thoughts or daydreams and spirit communication. In such a way that it doesn't appear completely self-serving and arbitrary?

But again, since it is not physical hearing, yet on the other hand, it's not precisely a thought either, I can understand how it would be difficult for a medium to explain it to someone who has not experienced it for themselves. Exactly what rules apply in a non-physical world?

I'm not convinced he's experiencing anything that the rest of us haven't. I merely think he's interpreting experiences differently. He's ad hoc, placing intent and meaning into experiences that perhaps have no such intent or meaning. I truly don't believe JE is experiencing new thought processes in his head that say, I haven't. What would even be the defintion of such a process and how could it conceivable be different, identifiably so, from regular thoughts and mental meanderings?

As for what rules apply in a non-physical world, I've waited a long time for someone to shed some light on that for me. So far I'm still looking at a clean slate.

Can we say with any assurance that JE is for real? That he is actually communicating with the consciousness of people who have died? I guess we can't ever really know this for a fact. I do know that he is definitely doing something other than cold-reading. If I came across a mentalist who was able to replicate what I've seen JE do over the years, I wouldn't be in the believers' camp, but so far, I haven't found such a person.

This statement essentially shows the difference between us. You are convinced almost beyond doubt that JE is not cold-reading. I think you'd have difficulty showing that what JE does is considerably different from cold-reading. The technique is very much the same. What the arguements come down to are hits and their relevance to pure chance. I see JE doing something very much like cold-reading, and so I entertain it as a very real possibility...one without extra supernatural baggage. His hit rate/quality so far has not convinced me to move into the believer camp. On a good day you'd have to agree that JE's performance does not really merit such a strong and utter belief in mediumship. The process of communication is too unreliable to really make one an utter true believer...without a want to believe coming into play.

 

[neofight]

Sure we can. It's not unexplainable simply because its within the realm of personal experience.

But within whose realm of personal experience? Not yours or mine certainly, which is why it's not easy for us to understand it. And yes, I know you have a different view about what I just said. You don't believe that mediums experience anything different from what we do, but I don't buy that for one second.

Neither do I necessarily agree with you that mediums do a poor job of describing mediumship to us. I've read JE's books and watched his show for years, and I think he did his level best to describe the nature of mediumship to his viewers. Heck, that was what he most concentrated on, getting others to understand the process.

I think most mediums would very likely say that they've "always" had this ability to one extent or another, back from the time they were young children. I can't say that I remember ever experiencing anything extraordinary or of a psychic nature when I was a child. Nor as an adult. Whatever "being psychic" is, I'm quite sure that I don't have it.

JE may very well think he's communicating. But can he be 100% certain that spirit communication is in fact that, and not his own imagination or thoughts playing tricks on him. Again, how does JE differentiate? How is it possible to discern between random thoughts or daydreams and spirit communication.

I would imagine it's fairly easy to differentiate between the two, provided that one experiences both things. We've all experienced random thoughts and daydreams. It seems reasonable to me that if suddenly we experienced something other than that, we would promptly take notice. It would be like.....Whoa! What the hell just happened there?

I'm not convinced he's experiencing anything that the rest of us haven't. I merely think he's interpreting experiences differently. He's ad hoc, placing intent and meaning into experiences that perhaps have no such intent or meaning. I truly don't believe JE is experiencing new thought processes in his head that say, I haven't. What would even be the defintion of such a process and how could it conceivable be different, identifiably so, from regular thoughts and mental meanderings?

My opinion is that mediumship is like porn in that sense. You'd know porn if you saw it, right? You'd probably know mediumship if you exerienced it as well. BTW, you don't have to convince me that you don't believe JE is experiencing anything different from what you or I have experienced. lol I believe you when you say that. I just think you're very wrong about it.

This statement essentially shows the difference between us. You are convinced almost beyond doubt that JE is not cold-reading. I think you'd have difficulty showing that what JE does is considerably different from cold-reading. The technique is very much the same.

To the casual observer, I'm sure that it is, voidx. Of course, I would not expect a cold-reader to deliberately do things differently from someone claiming to be a medium, since the whole idea is to replicate what they think the medium is doing. So naturally the technique, or at least the appearance of the technique, is very much the same. That is what a cold-reader would want to strive for after all. I just feel that they fail miserably in attaining that goal.

On a good day you'd have to agree that JE's performance does not really merit such a strong and utter belief in mediumship. The process of communication is too unreliable to really make one an utter true believer...without a want to believe coming into play.

Obviously I disagree with what you said there. I was most definitely neutral on the subject of mediumship when I first began looking into it. If I had any bias at all going in, it was that I thought it was quite unlikely it was anything but an act. I only changed my mind after observing lots and lots of impressive readings, looking into whatever I could find on cold-reading techniques, and comparing the two things. Now, even when I take my own experience out of the equation, I am still convinced that what I've seen JE do over the years is very different from even the best efforts of the cold-readers.

Which is why we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this issue, voidx. But thanks much for your comments.

 

[CFLarsen]

neofight,

Have you not mentioned your husband's father online? Just yes or no, please.

Do you have a tape recording of your reading?