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Montague Keen

Actually, I think JE just tosses a lot of statements to the audience/sitter and whatever sticks is a "hit". Whatever doesn't is either forgotten or left for possible "hits" later. It's really quite simple IMO.

For example: Someone reading this topic has one of those funny "cat" wall clocks. The tail is supposed to swing but the one on your clock doesn't. This clock was a gift, yes? And who's the cop? I'm also seeing a white rose, and that means something very spiritual has happened to you today, and who's the older woman figure?
 
Actually, I think JE just tosses a lot of statements to the audience/sitter and whatever sticks is a "hit". Whatever doesn't is either forgotten or left for possible "hits" later. It's really quite simple IMO.

For example: Someone reading this topic has one of those funny "cat" wall clocks. The tail is supposed to swing but the one on your clock doesn't. This clock was a gift, yes? And who's the cop? I'm also seeing a white rose, and that means something very spiritual has happened to you today, and who's the older woman figure?

Pyrrho, I could not disagree with you more. I have no idea where you live, but you should reallly try to find a local psychic medium with some ability. It would knock your socks off, or at least give you something to ponder. ;)
 
Pyrrho, I could not disagree with you more. I have no idea where you live, but you should reallly try to find a local psychic medium with some ability. It would knock your socks off, or at least give you something to ponder. ;)

Name one psychic medium with "some ability".

Prove that this psychic medium has "some ability".
 
Pyrrho, I could not disagree with you more. I have no idea where you live, but you should reallly try to find a local psychic medium with some ability. It would knock your socks off, or at least give you something to ponder. ;)
For many years, we had a local psychic who would knock your socks off. And your wallet, too. He preyed upon grieving locals by sending messages from beyond the grave and the newspaper obituary items. He took people for thousands of dollars, and then went big time.
Can you devine his name?
"I'm getting a J and an E, and a tooth job in the future..."
 
For many years, we had a local psychic who would knock your socks off. And your wallet, too. He preyed upon grieving locals by sending messages from beyond the grave and the newspaper obituary items. He took people for thousands of dollars, and then went big time.
Can you devine his name?
"I'm getting a J and an E, and a tooth job in the future..."

Good to see you again, Crow! :) And remember, there are more things, Horatio........
 
JE being caught hot-reading is not "damning"?? :eek:
You'll have to refresh my memory there. I seem to remember there being some disagreement to what he was actually caught doing. I'm not saying you're wrong, but my memory is a little fuzzy, and I know you'll have a link :D.
 
A lot of self-proclaimed skeptics and members of skeptical organizations believe that too, since they believe JE is not doing it by chance (because he knows what he is doing) and at times doesn't use cold reading (but warm or hot).
Good for them, whoever they are. Lets just deal with people in this thread perhaps. And what does the "self-proclaimed skeptics" beliefs have to do with Clancie's belief? It certainly doesn't do anything to validate her beliefs in anyway.

The majority of us discussing it in those threads back in the day, were of the opinion that what he did was by no means higher than chance. The number of JE "super hits" were really quite rare. It's just that they were such great hits, that those wanting to belief kept falling back on them. Some of us believed that they were just really lucky hits that he would inevitably get. Others suspected perhaps some hot reading in those cases, but no one that I remember thought them above chance. They were to few in number.
 
Pyrrho, I could not disagree with you more. I have no idea where you live, but you should reallly try to find a local psychic medium with some ability. It would knock your socks off, or at least give you something to ponder. ;)
So what is your opinion of JE's ability then? After much review nothing JE produced knocked our socks off. At best we conceded he had a more polished act and did marginally better than some examples by amateur cold readers.

His dismal performances on LKL highlighted for me what his ability was like when put on the spot, or asked to perform away from an environment of his choosing. While there were excuses as to why he did poorly in that environment, I must say they sounded like grasping at straws.

Going to a local medium to me is not a good test. I know enough to realize I might not be able to see the tricks, while sitting through them. Someone should be able to look at a transcript of all the information provided and still see it as being something truly validating. I'm of the opinion that meduims are 60% cold reading and 40% performance art. The better the performance, the more people can get caught up in it, the less specific the information needs to be for the sitter in question.

The very fact that we often disagreed as to just how specific a piece of JE information was shows the very problem with subjectivity and how it relates to mediumship.
 
So what is your opinion of JE's ability then?

Very favorable. I do believe that he is picking up information psychically. Some would argue that it's coming from reading the sitter's mind, but after observing him for so long, and considering my own experience at the Philly seminar, I reject that theory altogether.


His dismal performances on LKL highlighted for me what his ability was like when put on the spot, or asked to perform away from an environment of his choosing. While there were excuses as to why he did poorly in that environment, I must say they sounded like grasping at straws.

I would agree with you, voidx, that his phone readings, for the most part, did more harm to his credibility than good, and so I can completely understand your take on it. I know JE felt that the medium itself shouldn't make a difference, and he definitely has done some good readings via phone connections in the past, but imo, I think that the limited time and multiple phone lines worked against his abilities.

Going to a local medium to me is not a good test. I know enough to realize I might not be able to see the tricks, while sitting through them. Someone should be able to look at a transcript of all the information provided and still see it as being something truly validating.

I agree that a transcript would be invaluable in assessing the reading. There are many mediums, however, who do invite you to tape the entire reading, or who offer to do it themselves. John Edward never felt comfortable with doing that, so of course, that is another strike against him from the skeptics, who really aren't interested in what his reasons for this might be.

The very fact that we often disagreed as to just how specific a piece of JE information was shows the very problem with subjectivity and how it relates to mediumship.

I can't argue with that either. As a rule, however, I think the best arbiter of how meaningful a piece of information is to the sitter, is probably the sitter himself. I did find the sitters' post-reading comments very interesting though, since they usually provided the details necessary to make sense of the reading. That's why I think you might find the experience valuable.

I once came across an article written by a columnist for a NJ newspaper, and he wrote all about his own skeptism, and how his own reading in the "Crossing Over" gallery had made a believer out of him. I think if more skeptics would do a better job of investigating mediumship for themselves, instead of simply adhering to their preconceived belief in its illegitimacy and repeating the same old skeptic talking points, more than a couple of you would become a bit more agnostic on the issue. :)
 
You'll have to refresh my memory there. I seem to remember there being some disagreement to what he was actually caught doing. I'm not saying you're wrong, but my memory is a little fuzzy, and I know you'll have a link :D.

"Dateline". Ring a bell? ;)
 
neofight,

Name one psychic medium with "some ability".

Prove that this psychic medium has "some ability".
 
Hey, neofoght, how's it going?

I have to admit I got bored of the subject once I'd reached a LKLesque level of cold reading ability myself in just a few attempts at cold reading. And the arguments on the subject, from both sides (it's not just skeptics who repeat themselves), are pretty dull.
 
Hey, neofoght, how's it going?

I have to admit I got bored of the subject once I'd reached a LKLesque level of cold reading ability myself in just a few attempts at cold reading. And the arguments on the subject, from both sides (it's not just skeptics who repeat themselves), are pretty dull.

Hi, Ersby! Long time no hear from! :) You're right. Without a willingness to investigate further, the debate can only go so far. There are only so many ways that one can say the same thing, over and over again. lol

In my case, since my indirect, half-reading with JE was incredibly specific, I pretty much believe that mediumship is for real. JE said he had "Tom" coming through, (my deceased father-in-law) and proceeded to make at least eight very accurate references, one after another, that directly related to my husband and I.

And just so everyone knows, of those eight validations, four of them were actually names. Not initials. Not partial names. Names! They included the name of the person who had passed on, (Tom) our daughter's nickname, (Dolly) my maiden name, (Alexander) since my father-in-law was very close to my own parents, and last, but not least, my own first name. (Jackie)

So when I hear the tired old line about how John Edward doesn't give names, or how he bugs his audience etc., I really have no interest in arguing with people who are so ill-informed and cynical. As far as cold-reading, what can I say, except that it's........well.......cold-reading. Which means that even with a perceptive and talented cold-reader, the law of averages will only take you so far. ;)
 
And just so everyone knows, of those eight validations, four of them were actually names. Not initials. Not partial names. Names! They included the name of the person who had passed on, (Tom) our daughter's nickname, (Dolly) my maiden name, (Alexander) since my father-in-law was very close to my own parents, and last, but not least, my own first name. (Jackie)

Yes, but he was talking to someone else when he said them.

Which means that even with a perceptive and talented cold-reader, the law of averages will only take you so far. ;)

From my (limited) experience, an amazing reading (where the sitter remarks on its uncanny accuracy) occured one in every six readings. And I was an untrained amateur.
 
Yes, but he was talking to someone else when he said them.

Yes he was, Ersby. But not just anybody. Someone I had a connection with. The one and only person in an auditorium full of some 2000 to 3000 other people who, aside from my husband and the couple we came with, were all complete strangers to me.

My friend was able to make sense of his reading, but only the first half. The second half meant positively nothing to him. And it's not as though the things my husband and I related to were interspersed within his reading. "Our" reading began, when his ended. In other words, his loved one(s) brought through our loved one, which is perfectly consistent with how the process is supposed to work. Whether you accept that idea, or whether you accept anything at all about mediumship, is another story entirely. But it is consistent.

From my (limited) experience, an amazing reading (where the sitter remarks on its uncanny accuracy) occured one in every six readings. And I was an untrained amateur.

Yes. An untrained amateur/fraud, doing a reading on someone who very likely was a naive and undiscerning mark. Even on JE's show, I've seen such people who grab at straws to make a square peg fit into a round hole. A cold-reader like yourself naturally love people like that. A true medium who is trying to bring through someone's loved one would reject a hit if he felt in his heart that the person was just desperately trying to stretch something to fit when it didn't.
 
neofight,

Name one psychic medium with "some ability".

Prove that this psychic medium has "some ability".
 
Yes. An untrained amateur/fraud, doing a reading on someone who very likely was a naive and undiscerning mark. Even on JE's show, I've seen such people who grab at straws to make a square peg fit into a round hole. A cold-reader like yourself naturally love people like that.

I don't think that's the case: the information I brought through was specific and meaninful. I told one person his father was connected to the military, which he was. I told another person the name Pat was important and it was very important. Someone's mother had pnuemonia, I told them that. I described one person's grandmother's house. And there were others I don't remember.

If I'd gone for long enough and had someone edit out the repititions and dead-end lines of questioning to keep a nice flow, I think I'd could, on occasion, reach the same standards as an TV medium.

This is just my opinion, of course.
 
This is just my opinion, of course.

And you are quite welcome to it, of course! lol

BTW, didn't you start a thread way back when, in which you presented various readings for believers like me to analyze? My memory of it isn't too clear, I admit, but perhaps you might be able to dig it up again for a re-read?
 

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