Molten Steel

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Alternatively, just point out that it's plagiarised from a website that touts UFO claims.

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/scepticism/drasin.html

We have rules against that sort of thing. You agreed to abide by them when you joined.

Dave

What? You think I am trying to claim I came up with this? This is a well known list in some circles, heck I can point out where I have quoted it properly elsewhere without trying to claim it as mine.

I figured you would all be familiar with this...OH WAIT A SECOND...it's not that, it's that you do not like having the light shined on your responses.

Here...if it makes you feel better I will put quotes around it and link to the page I got it from, which is itself a quote from the book.
 
I thought we went over this already. There are "Noise Abatement" techniques that can muffle the sound of explosions. That report I linked to on this only talks about a few (7 I think it was) methods and of course only those methods that would not be considered a "military secret" or "secret military technology"

You apparently didn't read the followups that showed that the technique was hugely impractical in an office building, only cut the perceived sound by about half, and didn't cut the seismic signal and there was no seismic signal recorded on 9/11 what would indicate man-made demolition.

This video explains man-made demolition in the context of WTC. If you have questions or comments on the content, the author of the video might respond here.



Also did you not read that article that talks about the difference between the types of explosions people are used to seeing in hollywood movies and real life explosions? If you are expecting a real life muffled explosion to sound like a hollywood explosion then you are deluding yourself.

See


Any man-made demolition would have been recorded on the sound tracks of all the video cameras in operation at WTC. There s no such video. There were lots of cameras in use.
 
Hmmm see what I mean by your thinking process. You have somehow managed to arrive at "you do not have a good reason to dispute that WRH is not a good source..." from what I said? How did you do that?

It was easy. You didn't post a good reason.

But are you going to continue trying to smear the source instead of actually arguing the facts?

I merely pointed out that WRH is not the best source of information, (and only because you spammed about a dozen links from their site without even actually making an argument in support of the claim of liquid steel.) My response to the first article and why the witness statement contained therein should not be taken at face value had absolutely nothing to do with the credibility of WRH, something that seems to have sailed completely over your head.

Are you here to debate claims of liquid steel at GZ? If you want to debate the credibility of WRH as a source, please start a thread about that.
 
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I have a question, probably for Sunstealer as he is obviously the most qualified.

If you have a ton of thermite and are using it to cut through two tons of steel, would the final weight of the result after reaction be between 2 and 3 tons or would it only be the weight of the steel? Would the thermite "burn off" completely?
Just picked up on this.

The thermite reaction is Fe2O3 + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 2Fe -

So you are reacting two solid substances and getting one solid and one liquid product. There is no gas formed in that reaction and therefore no material is lost to the atmosphere (theoretically) so the weight must be equal on both sides. The idea behind thermite is that it contains it's own oxidant and it's this oxygen that used to combine with the Aluminium.

So after the reaction you will be left with solid alumina and liquid iron (plus 2 tons of liquid steel) and the overall weight won't change so the answer is 3 tons theoretically*.

The aluminium has been oxidised and the iron reduced - a redox reaction.

Stoichiometry.

Chemical g/mole

Fe2O3 159.7
Al 26.98
Al2O3 101.96
Fe 55.85

so 1 mole of thermite is (1 x 159.7)+ (2 x 26.98) = 213.66g

which produces

(2 x 55.85) =111.7g of Liquid Fe
(1 x101.96) = 101.96g of Alumina.

* In the real world you wouldn't expect 100% of the reactants to react, but mixing the powders well would maximise the yield, therefore you wouldn't get 100% reaction efficiency. Also bear in mind that not all of the heat of reaction will be consumed heating the Iron, Alumina and steel a proportion will be lost to heating the atmosphere, heating a container and the heat will also be conducted via the steel that's still solid.

We can work out how much steel a gram of thermite will melt for a given final steel temperature using a chemical thermodynamic method, but we need to assume 100% efficiency when doing it, which is in the real world obviously impossible.

For a real world scenario you have to make more assumptions than just assuming 100% efficiency. As we know certain people get rather uppity and think that assumption is doubletalk for making it up.

There are probably better was of doing it - do we have any thermodynamicists in the house?
 
On the other side of the equation, here is a small list of experts that have come out against the "Official" version

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html

Appeals to authority do not carry weight. The PQ911 group has been shown to not only forward already refuted claims, but has misrepresented the views of many of the supposed "members" (people who probably have no idea that Alan Miller has listed them on his websites).

Here's one example of a listed "Patriot" who makes a pair of falsified claims:

Richard Curtis, PhD
Adjunct Professor of Philosophy at a variety of Seattle area colleges.

Listed on PQ911 for the following:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/270284_connellyrebut16.html

Writing about a speech by one of the members of the 9/11 Commission, P-I columnist Joel Connelly claimed: "Each of us needs to understand why we are doing what we are doing." ("Sept. 11 show the flaws with protocol," May 8)

Indeed! The problem is that the "why" we have been told appears to be a complete fiction.
It turns out those oral histories reveal details about what was happening in the World Trade Center buildings that are completely inconsistent with the tale told by the commission. Dozens of firefighters and medics reported hearing, seeing and feeling explosives going off in the buildings that collapsed. Why were there explosives, very powerful explosives by all accounts, going off in the buildings? More disturbing, why was the pattern of those explosives identical in some important ways with the pattern used in a planned implosion (or controlled demolition of a building)?

Full blown truther mantra article...worth a read and laugh.

He apparently made a speech, not accessible from the PQ911 site (link broken, goes to google search), that had the following quote...

"... there is no evidence to support the commonly held belief that 19 Arab religious fanatics were responsible for the attack of 9/11. And further, the evidence we do have strongly supports the alternative theory that the attacks were actually an inside job. ... The government and our media have endlessly repeated a Big Lie about 9/11. The official version of this lie was published in a book called The 9/11 Commission Report."

And he is a member of "Scholars for 9/11 Truth".

This fellow seems 100% 9/11 truth believer.

TAM:)

Discussions of the "explosions" located here:
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/whattheyheard
http://911myths.com/html/accounts_of_explosions.html
http://debunking911.com/explosions.htm

Discussions of the evidence regarding the hijackers here:
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/linkstoterrorism,alqaedainfo
http://911myths.com/html/hijackers.html

That person is recycling old myths. Many others on that site retail myths and fallacies. The fact that they're "experts" (experts in what should be the next question you readers should ask Steve here) doesn't rescue them from that problem. See the following thread, and Ref's paper discussing the PQ911 group in more detail:

Thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94638
Ref's paper (note: Work is in .pdf format): http://911guide.googlepages.com/PatriotsQuestion911Addressed-Enginee.pdf

Also: There are some people listed who are not myth peddling, but who I'm willing to bet would be surprised to find themselves being lumped in with 9/11 deniers. Mary Schiavo is one of them; I've specifically pointed her out back in 2008:

Why does Mary Schiavo's name keep popping up? She's never made any claims about the NIST investigation, and in fact has only voiced criticisms about the issues with airline security and individual elements of the investigation regarding the timeline analysis of the airplane hijackings, the last of which was eventually answered. T.A.M. wrote up an analysis of her entry on the PQ911 site here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3305226#post3305226.

I've never seen her call for any new investigation. To her, the whole problem with 9/11 is one of airline security (a legitimate criticism, I might add). Her stance is at most LIHOI, and given that her criticism involves lax security, it's pretty obvious she agrees with the narrative of radical Islamic hijackers committing 9/11. Yet, her name always comes up whenever a fantasist insists on listing people that supposedly agree with their stances. I don't get it.

In Schiavo's case, not only has she never stated any disbelief in the dominant narrative of 9/11, but her criticism and activism clearly, unequivocally shows that she believes hijackers were the root cause of the event. I've not seen any place she's questioned the engineering behind the towers collapse, nor has she seemed to ever question the identity of the hijackers. In short, she does indeed question 9/11, but in a manner far, far removed from the way conspiracy peddlers do. If you want an example of a genuine critic, look to her. But at the same time, if you want to use her to validate the rest of the PQ911 list, think very carefully: As I said, her criticisms strengthen the hijackings narrative. Which in turn negates many of the claims of stolen Arab identities, such as the one Dr. Richard Curtis made (above).

The ultimate point here is that listing the Patriots Question 9/11 list is an exercise in fallacious argument. It's not who they are, it's what they say. Mary Schiavo says many harsh things that make sense, but do not contribute to any conspiratorial thesis. Richard Curtis makes claims that do point at conspiracies, but have long been disproven. It is an empty act to present the PQ911 list as some sort of authoritative argument against any aspect of 9/11, let alone the NIST report, which not everyone on the list even addresses, and which the rest misrepresent or resort to fallacies in order to attack.
 
I thought we went over this already. There are "Noise Abatement" techniques that can muffle the sound of explosions.

Yeah, they can muffle the sound from "eardrums ruptured" down to "painful but you'll recover". They can't make them silent. The noise levels listed in your article, even after the abatement, were still orders of magnitude louder than a jet engine.

Also did you not read that article that talks about the difference between the types of explosions people are used to seeing in hollywood movies and real life explosions? If you are expecting a real life muffled explosion to sound like a hollywood explosion then you are deluding yourself.

No, real life explosions are much louder than hollywood, even when muffled. In movies, people are thrown by explosions and get up and walk away. In real life, the pressure wave (aka SOUND) from an explosion will kill a person.
 
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If I were to say to you that no one in all of my thousands of contacts believes in the OCT rubbish, would you accept that?

That you have thousands of contacts or that they all believe the towers were blown?
 
"How to debunk just about anything...

* Before commencing to debunk, prepare your equipment. Equipment
needed: one armchair.

* Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that
suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith
and credit of God. Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such
as "ridiculous" or "trivial" in a manner that suggests they have
the full force of scientific authority.

Edited by Gaspode: 
Breach of Rule 4 removed.


;)

Edit: Seems Dave does not like this light shining on him so he has to make the accusation of plagiarism...as if I could plagiarise this list that has been around and quite popular for 15 years now...

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/debnk.htm

and originally from :
How To Debunk Just About Anything From "The McDaniel Report" by Stanley V. McDaniel (North Atlantic Books: 1993),
ISBN 1-55643-088-4

Is that better Dave?

Can you put me in contact with the Organization that can do all of that? They got the NWO beat all hollow and I'd like to be the best that I can be.
 
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Appeals to authority do not carry weight.

Unless of course they support the "Official" report right? Would you like me to link all the "appeals to authority" here on JREF to support the "Official" report.

Who was it a few days back on another thread that listed Bazant's entire educational and professional experience and then compared it to Heiwa's?
 
When you can't argue the facts instead try and smear the person. Debunking 101

So then, what do you think about WRH's molten steel contentions? I'm curious because it shows a pic of firefighters looking upon a pool of molten steel, do you agree with WRH's contention that they are looking at molten steel?

How about the cuts on the columns at the bottom of the page. What are your thoughts. I'll answer to them after I hear your impressions (don't spoil it people, I want to hear what C7 and austin think of these)
Steve, you said when I couldn't argue facts I resort to smearing the person. I've read the site, particularly the part where it deals with this topic. I'd like you to share your thoughts when you're not too busy responding to everyone else. It'll tell me volumes about where you stand in your use of their material. I could post some material regarding their accuracy and truthfulness but I don't want to spoil it for you just yet until I have your thoughts
 
This was the worst terrorist attack on US soil ever. There is no "impractical" when something like this happens. You do a complete, full, thorough and open investigation and you follow all leads and all evidence no matter how irrelevant it may seem. To do anything less is an insult to those that died and the surviving familly members

Well to be honest I don't think they followed up on the energy beam thing. They can be forgiven the thermite since that story wasn't invented until 04. The nukes were ignored and the possibility of Alien Intervention was totally dissed so yes, many leads were left unexplored.

My fave is the Doughboy from Gostbusters throwing giant model planes.
 
No that is a false interpretation of what I said and what I meant and you know it.

Those people on trial cannot be their own "character witness"

Let's use a different analogy...

An astronomer puts out a new theory on black holes. It is a controversial theory and people ask him "well do you have anyone that agrees with you?", and to this he replies "Yes, Jack Black here agrees with me for one", but Jack Black is a co-author of the theory.

Anyone who worked on the NIST report is part of said report and cannot be included in an independent supporter of the "Official" report
Let me put it this way, what does glowing steel have to do with 911?
What was so complex about the 911 terrorist plot that makes you want to apologize for terrorists and blame 911 on other people using the dumbest ideas you can imagine? Why do you lack evidence about molten steel, glowing steel, unable to make up a good story so skeptics become skeptic of the terrorist plot, it was so complex maybe you are failing to present your (a) Game? Why are you void of a rational scenario as you apologize for terrorists using hearsay, lies and fantasy (remembering you are part of a skeptic forum not a failed fantasy ideas fest)?

What is the story on the Molten Steel and remember there was zero, zip, not one piece of thermite product found at the WTC complex pulled out piece-by-piece over MONTHS. No explosives either. What is your story, and if you did not study the OP it is filled with hearsay and lies. Which means you support hearsay and lies for your failed support of what?

You are posting to a failed OP with more junk ideas and you can’t explain why you use hearsay, lies and fantasy to generate your non-scenario of molten steel, glowing steel you should have used the dictionary before you jumped into the failed delusions of 911Truth and the cult like inside job kool-aid drinking club practice of throwing in the everything including the kitchen sink to support your delusion. What else will you propose in your delusion on 911 that was investigated and you missed it?

As you blame my fellow soldiers for 911, I can see you are way to gullible to be a responsible person who would use facts and evidence to support your lies.
Why are hearsay and lies from the OP important? Explain why explosives don’t make steel melt, and why molten steel is only glowing steel, the same I see in my firebox? Explain your evidence to support your scenario where glowing steel is the smoking gun of all smoking guns and why you failed to make this Pulitzer Prize winning information public? Are detained? Are you afraid of the big bad media? Is your hearsay and lies that support your failed idea keeping this from being the biggest story ever?

Why did the OP lie about what Robertson say?
 
Hmmmm that link doesn't debunk anything. It does a fair job at obfuscation but does not debunk anything. Sorry if it managed to cloud your thinking.
I love how truthers post their conclusions to a site 10 minutes after the original link was posted. It obviously shows he didn't bother to read the information or dig any further using the links in the article. I guess that they don't want to be very thorough and any article that looks like it is long or hard to read, requires thought and knowledge is automatically dismissed. Doubly so if it may contradict their own prejudice, hence the one line "I can't actually tell if any of that article you linked to actually makes a point, because I don't have sufficient education, experience or knowledge to refute the points in the article, so instead I'll throw a one-liner out using a truther phrase and hope no-one notices".
 
I thought we went over this already. There are "Noise Abatement" techniques that can muffle the sound of explosions. That report I linked to on this only talks about a few (7 I think it was) methods and of course only those methods that would not be considered a "military secret" or "secret military technology"

Also did you not read that article that talks about the difference between the types of explosions people are used to seeing in hollywood movies and real life explosions? If you are expecting a real life muffled explosion to sound like a hollywood explosion then you are deluding yourself.

You seem to be arguing both sides. Were the explosions loud enough to be heard or were they muffled?
 
Steve, you said when I couldn't argue facts I resort to smearing the person. I've read the site, particularly the part where it deals with this topic. I'd like you to share your thoughts when you're not too busy responding to everyone else. It'll tell me volumes about where you stand in your use of their material. I could post some material regarding their accuracy and truthfulness but I don't want to spoil it for you just yet until I have your thoughts

you guys might want to go read that BBC blog I linked above. There was a guy there that kept arguing in favor of the OCT, and he was a big fan of this site. Yet none of his claims stood up to the light of day, and as quite a few people here do not like the way this debate is going (always saying get back on topic) and only want to concentrate on one tiny little topic (compartmentalizing the debate) maybe you could pick up there (on the BBC blog) where we left off here, just be sure to read the entire 2700+ responses first so we dont have to repeat anything.
 
No that is a false interpretation of what I said and what I meant and you know it.

Those people on trial cannot be their own "character witness"

Let's use a different analogy...

An astronomer puts out a new theory on black holes. It is a controversial theory and people ask him "well do you have anyone that agrees with you?", and to this he replies "Yes, Jack Black here agrees with me for one", but Jack Black is a co-author of the theory.

Anyone who worked on the NIST report is part of said report and cannot be included in an independent supporter of the "Official" report

How about housewives? Are they qualified?
 
I love how truthers post their conclusions to a site 10 minutes after the original link was posted. It obviously shows he didn't bother to read the information or dig any further using the links in the article. I guess that they don't want to be very thorough and any article that looks like it is long or hard to read, requires thought and knowledge is automatically dismissed. Doubly so if it may contradict their own prejudice, hence the one line "I can't actually tell if any of that article you linked to actually makes a point, because I don't have sufficient education, experience or knowledge to refute the points in the article, so instead I'll throw a one-liner out using a truther phrase and hope no-one notices".

Or maybe I read that page before :rolleyes:
 
Let me put it this way...


No, you see I do not need to come up with an alternative scenario, that's not my job. All that has to be done is prove that there were errors/lies/etc.. in the OCT.

Having done this I am asking for a new independent, impartial, thorough and transparent investigation into what happened.

Asking me what I think happened does not support the OCT but simply dodges away from it.
 
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