Molten Steel

[Shalamar]

another banning nomination, this for beachnut, will the moderartors at jref please ban this poster, beachnut, he is rude, abusive and obtrusive and should have his posting priveleges taken away, thank you

There is a report button. If you feel that a post goes against the user agreement, use that button, and make no further comment. Doing so, as per the quote, makes you look immature and childish.

As well, I'm going to have to add my call to the claim of your credentials. You seem to be lacking the basic knowledge that your background claim would have. There is a way on this forum to provide proof of credentials without revealing your private information to everyone. The JREF is primarily composed of skeptics, and right now, we are rather skeptical of your claims, so if you want to be taken seriously, please provide evidence and proof of your claims.

One person claimed to be an architect, but I disproved that after I pointed out that it was nopnsense when the "architect guy" got sloppy and said that modern buildings never considered fire saftety in the design and construction, same thing happened when another guy claimed he was an engineer, yet the engineer guy didn;t know how to contact his local, municipal building, safety and civil engineering department for references and referals.

Actually, this is not true. The user Architect, who has provided his credentials I believe, said that they do not take into consideration the possibility of aircraft impacts into the designs of their buildings. NOT fire safety. You made the claim that airplane impacts were necessary to consider, but you refuse to provide any evidence for your claim. Since you make the claim, you should provide a source for the claim. We won't do your work for you.

 

[GStan]

I think smartpants just needs a big hug.

...or maybe a swift kick in his misplaced arrogance ROCKS!

 

[beachnut]

^^^^^

What the? That was one of the most polite posts I've ever read by Beachnut. You should see him when he gets mad.

I was trying to be nice; and he left before we could have espresso.

I was most impressed with his massive pile of new 911Truth evidence on this topic.

 

[boloboffin]

Funnily enough, I am finding "S & T" on a Google search, but it's an abbreviation for "Science and Technology," and not "Standards and Technology." Are you aware that NIST is an abbreviation for National Institute of Standards and Technology, prof?

 

[phunk]

Actually, power supplies are usually nickel-cadmium batteries because they are more reliable and last much longer. What is your source and how many tons of what metal were in those batteries?

Actually, no they don't. They most commonly use lead-acid batteries today, and even more so in 2001.

 

[boloboffin]

Actually, no they don't. They most commonly use lead-acid batteries today, and even more so in 2001.

And enough batteries were used to require a reinforced floor in that area. It was Cantor Fitzgerald's floor, IIRC.

 

[BigAl]

There is no precedent or scientific evidence that this can happen. It's pure speculation.

Actually, power supplies are usually nickel-cadmium batteries because they are more reliable and last much longer. What is your source and how many tons of what metal were in those batteries?

The "power supplies" we are speaking of are rechargeable batteries that are part of uninterruptible power systems (UPS). Lead-Acid is the standard type.

Ni-Cad batteries are not rechargable.

(What a loon)

 

[Sunstealer]

Quite the contrary. The girder is partly melted.

Please download the photo. Then use MS paint or another program to put an arrow onto the picture indicating where you think this girder has been partly melted (and any other interesting features). Please upload the photo to photobucket/imageshack etc and then link to it.

You can then take us through which features of that girder indicate that partial melting has taken place. I'd be extremely interested because failure analysis is a big part of my job and I'm always keen on getting more knowledge from other people in this field.

 

[Sunstealer]

Wrong!

NCSTAR 1-3C pg 232
6. No source for the sulfur was identified.

This paper explains exactly where all the sulphur comes from. http://www.scribd.com/doc/11542599/911-Sulfur-and-World-Trade-Center

If you actually bother to take the time to read this then your question about sulphur will be answered. I know that reading is not your forte and that you have great difficulty with the science but there are people here that can help you. All you have to do is say what you don't understand and ask for help - it's the way people learn things.

 

[Toke]

Ni-Cad batteries are not rechargable.

Yes they are.

But they are not used for UPS batteries.
And they are being replaced in handtools by Ni-MH or lithium ones

 

[Sunstealer]

And also they were pumping water onto the pile which can create lots of exothermic reactions with material in the pile.

Heated iron and steam causes an exothermic reaction and increases oxidation rate. Early on in the industrial revolution this method was used to produce Hydrogen gas. And we were pumping water into the pile to cool it.

This is very important - it answers the questions about the rate of corrosion.

Fires are causing the release of S0₂ in the rubble pile and heating steel members. Rapid oxidation occurs aided by sulphidation. (note oxidation is an exothermic reaction). Now pour water onto these hot steel beams. What do you get? Steam. S0₂ is soluble in water. Yep, you'll produce H₂SO₄ - sulphuric acid. Contrary to what you might expect putting water on the fires would cause exothermic reactions making the piles hotter and increase the rate of corrosion rapidly due to the formation of H2SO4 and massive spalling of the steel due to thermal shock

 

[Toke]

and one other guy, who acknowledged that he worked as an electrician

During a portstay in Longbeach I found an add in an american newspaper.
It was for 12hours of vhs tape with electrical instructions, it would qualify you for "electrical jobs".

The danish electrician education is a few years longer than that.

Did you buy the engineer/architect tapes?

 

[BigAl]

Yes they are.

But they are not used for UPS batteries.
And they are being replaced in handtools by Ni-MH or lithium ones

You are of course correct and I am wrong. Having owned a UPS with a room full of batteries that would do a WWII submarine proud, I know damn well that the batteries in WTC were lead-acid. I had Alkalines in mind what I posted that that they were not rechargeable.

 

[Jono]

Why, that's utter and complete nonsense--ohhh sorry, I missed that, you were just joking and playing around, I get it know, good laugh for all of us.

What is this? I don't understand such a response within all the swift vernacular puns of the contemporary american-english lingo.

I assure you that I made no jokes in that post, nor was there any "utter and complete nonsense" therein.
Forging swords is quite easily done in a sense, as long as you've got the steel's integrity down to 40-20% of its initial strength. Is this supposed to be nonsense somehow? If so, enlighten me, right this instance.

 

[Sunstealer]

The only known way to get sulfur into steel and cause intergranular melting is thermate.

ROFLMAO - oh man they guys at work are gonna see this one, we need a laugh due to the week we are having.

C7 really needs to look up sulphidation (or sulfidation - US spelling) and try to understand how and why it occurs. It's a very well known and studied phenomenon and occurs in many industries.

He also doesn't see the conflict between liquid Fe at 2500°C coming into contact with steel, melting the steel due to heat which occurs rapidly and the fact that sulphidation is a diffusion process and therefore takes a long time.

Thermate/mite wouldn't be able to produce sulphidation and therefore cannot be the source for the sulphur we see in the steel.

It's very easy to demonstrate - get some steel, get some thermite, ignite thermite. Wait a bit. Cut off a small part around the melted section. Take to the metallurgy lab. Have a nice metallurgist section, mount, grind and polish and etch the specimen. Then look at it down a microscope. It would take less than a day to get an answer if you set the experiment up and got a university to help with the sectioning.

Cost would be next to nothing. So come on you truthers if you believe thermite was the reason raise $50 for the steel/thermite and beer* and off you go.

* Beer is for the metallurgist as payment.

 

[BigAl]

Yes they are.

But they are not used for UPS batteries.
And they are being replaced in handtools by Ni-MH or lithium ones

You are of course correct and I am wrong. Having owned a datacenter UPS with a room full of batteries that would do a WWII submarine proud, I know damn well that the batteries in WTC were lead-acid. I had Alkalines in mind what I posted that that they were not rechargeable.

 

[beachnut]

You are of course correct and I am wrong. Having owned a UPS with a room full of batteries that would do a WWII submarine proud, I know damn well that the batteries in WTC were lead-acid. I had Alkalines in mind what I posted that that they were not rechargeable.

I just replaced all my UPS batteries they were past useful life. Catching Chris7 lack of knowledge was easy. There must have been tons of lead in the WTC.

 

[Egil]

This is very important - it answers the questions about the rate of corrosion.

Fires are causing the release of S0₂ in the rubble pile and heating steel members. Rapid oxidation occurs aided by sulphidation. (note oxidation is an exothermic reaction). Now pour water onto these hot steel beams. What do you get? Steam. S0₂ is soluble in water. Yep, you'll produce H₂SO₄ - sulphuric acid. Contrary to what you might expect putting water on the fires would cause exothermic reactions making the piles hotter and increase the rate of corrosion rapidly due to the formation of H2SO4 and massive spalling of the steel due to thermal shock

Also, WTC-7 housed an Electrical Substation that contained sulfuric acid and sulfur hexaflouride (not sure how much). Wonder if the substation was fully involved in flames? And where was the substation in relation to Trusses 1, 2 and 3? And didn't one of the trusses connect to column 81 that failed and formed the infamous kink?

How much heat is requied to burst a sulfuric battery?

*EDIT*

Okay did some online searching and voila. Sulfuric Acid at Ground Zero

According to the owner of the substation, there was 338 Gallons of Sulfuric Acid and 350 pounds of sulfur hexaflouride. That is a lot of Sulfuric Acid.

*Second EDIT*

OSHA sampling reports as of 10/08/02

They did find sulfuric acid and of 255 samples for inorganic acid, four exceeded the PEL for Sulfuric Acid.

 

[Sunstealer]

where did you get your information from on the heat trials of 400 degrees C? Do you have the time line or duration of exposure of heat sourcing, another words, for how long, what type of applied heat, what is the fuel source of the applied heat source, what gas (oxygen, nitrogen, helium, carbon monoxide etc) is being used to induce the heat and to make it constant?

What on earth are dribbling on about? The data is from a text book which will reference the source. What you are asking for is meta-data and nobody will quote that in a paper. Your questions also show that you know nothing about tensile testing. There are several ways to do elevated temperature tensile tests but the duration of exposure, fuel source and atmosphere are of absolutely no importance.

You are trying to sound all scientificky and knowledgeable hoping that a layman might be persuaded, but it's easy to see through that and show you haven't the faintest clue.

Most people never understand the criteria and the processes for what it takes for melting, softening or enabling molecules in the steel to "flow", there is a lot to it, needless to say. It's one of the reasons why us folks at the government and private labs never could flatly say that any steel members failed due to heat in the wtc towers.

Haha, molecules in the steel to flow! Oh brother that is superb! I'd love a more detailed response about them there molecules.

You need one thing and one thing only to soften steel (both in the sense of malleability and hardness) - heat.

But do go on, you are providing fantastic entertainment.

 

[Christopher7]

The only known way to get sulfur into steel and cause intergranular melting is thermate.

ROFLMAO - oh man they guys at work are gonna see this one, we need a laugh due to the week we are having.

Instead of attacking the arguer, deal with the situation at hand.

FEMA Chapter C

The thinning of the steel occurred by a high-temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.

Heating of the steel into a hot corrosive environment approaching 1,000°C (1,800°F) results in the formation of a eutectic mixture of iron, oxygen, and sulfur that liquefied the steel.

Do you have another verifiable explanation for the melted beams?