Molten Steel

[Sunstealer]

Get serious.
Acid rain cannot result in a hot corrosive environment approaching 1,000°C (1,800°F) that results in the formation of a eutectic mixture of iron, oxygen, and sulfur that liquefied the steel.

No he's not claiming that acid rain made the hot environment he is saying that spraying water onto steel that's been heated due to fires in the rubble pile will cause some chemical reactions to occur. Firstly we know that when this happens steam is produced (method used to be used to produce hydrogen). Secondly that there is plenty of SO₂ due to the combustion of materials in the fire. Combine the two and you will produce sulphuric acid (a component of acid rain). This will attack the steel very heavily especially if the fires continue and heat the steel. Oxidation is an exothermic process. Combine all this heat, SO₂ the introduction of H₂SO₄ and you are going to get sulphidation. An indication of the temperature is the Fe-O-S eutectic which solidifies @ 940°C so if we see the eutectic structure then we know that temperatures must have been that high.

Remember that the amount of eutectic is tiny.

 

[Christopher7]

http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2008/03/nist-confirms-ups-on-81st-floor-of-wtc2.html

Who wrote that article? What is their source for assuming the battery banks were acid-lead?

 

[Dave_46]

<snip>
I've heard of being East Ham, but this one is positively Upminster.

Dave

Its a while since I heard that. You might need to explain it for your non-UK readers.

Dave

 

[Christopher7]

No he's not claiming that acid rain made the hot environment he is saying that spraying water onto steel that's been heated due to fires in the rubble pile will cause some chemical reactions to occur. Firstly we know that when this happens steam is produced (method used to be used to produce hydrogen). Secondly that there is plenty of SO₂ due to the combustion of materials in the fire. Combine the two and you will produce sulphuric acid (a component of acid rain). This will attack the steel very heavily especially if the fires continue and heat the steel.

Fires in the debris pile could not approach 1000°C.

Oxidation is an exothermic process. Combine all this heat, SO₂ the introduction of H₂SO₄ and you are going to get sulphidation. An indication of the temperature is the Fe-O-S eutectic which solidifies @ 940°C so if we see the eutectic structure then we know that temperatures must have been that high.

All that is theoretical and does not explain the high temperature corrosion in the debris pile.

 

[Christopher7]

Please download the photo. Then use MS paint or another program to put an arrow onto the picture indicating where you think this girder has been partly melted (and any other interesting features). Please upload the photo to photobucket/imageshack etc and then link to it.

You can then take us through which features of that girder indicate that partial melting has taken place. I'd be extremely interested because failure analysis is a big part of my job and I'm always keen on getting more knowledge from other people in this field.

This is abject silliness.

If you are interested in getting more knowledge from other people then why don't you believe Abolhassan Astaneh?
He inspected the girder and that is far more definitive than looking at a photo.

 

[tsig]

What is this? I don't understand such a response within all the swift vernacular puns of the contemporary american-english lingo.

I assure you that I made no jokes in that post, nor was there any "utter and complete nonsense" therein.
Forging swords is quite easily done in a sense, as long as you've got the steel's integrity down to 40-20% of its initial strength. Is this supposed to be nonsense somehow? If so, enlighten me, right this instance.

Do you still temper them by plunging them into slaves?

 

[Egil]

All that is theoretical and does not explain the high temperature corrosion in the debris pile.

No, it is not theoretical and it explains high temp corrosion. It happens in jet turbines exposed to ocean salts like sodium sulfate which is a high-heat environment.

*Edit*

And FDNY Fireboats were used to pump water because the watermains were broke and the hydrans thus out of comission.

Fireboats of 9/11

More evidence of fire-boats involvement in pumping water to fight fires.

 

[Sunstealer]

/facepalm. No that is not theoretical. You forget that I know a large amount about high temperature corrosion because I've not only studied it but have used that in practice in the real world. The problem for you is you don't.

I've linked plenty of papers with regard to sulphidation, oxidation and high temperature corrosion but you won't read them. This http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/WTC_apndxC.htm shows classic high temperature oxidation and sulphidation. You cannot argue otherwise. I'd like to see you try but you can't and nor could any metallurgist.

Infact why don't you read this http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...tc&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

You'll need to open the file at the top - it will show you everything you need to know about the high temperature corrosion. If you need anything explaining just ask because the document is technical.

Add this to the Greenings paper regarding sources of Sulphur and it sums everything up.

 

[beachnut]

Who wrote that article? What is their source for assuming the battery banks were acid-lead?

The batteries were lead acid. You made up the NiCd lie, you need to provide proof, you presented trains use NiCds because they can produce a lot of current; but you never providence evidence of NiCds used in the WTC for UPS purposes, exactly like your failed thermite lie you have no proof, you make it up.

It is funny how you googled back up, and found train batteries. Classic lack of follow up and using logic and sound jugdment.

It is funny how you googled back up, and found train batteries. Classic lack of follow up and using logic and sound judgment. Your research techniques make it impossible for you to gain useful knowledge on 911 issues. Just as you found back up batteries used in trains, from a battery manufacturer who is touting their own batteries, you get your 911 knowledge form 911Truth delusion sources and post it without thinking, without care.

 

[tsig]

Fires in the debris pile could not approach 1000°C.

All that is theoretical and does not explain the high temperature

corrosion in the debris pile.

So high temp is below 1000 degree C?

 

[Sunstealer]

This is abject silliness.

If you are interested in getting more knowledge from other people then why don't you believe Abolhassan Astaneh?
He inspected the girder and that is far more definitive than looking at a photo.

No it's not silliness - you are making the claim about that photo - show us which part of the photo indicates that it melted.

You linked to this document and provided the photo http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf

Nowhere in that document does it state that that beam was melted. Abolhassan Astaneh does not say that beam was melted. C7 says that the beam was melted. I am asking you how you know this and to show us how indicating the parts of the beam that show the evidence.

You are making the claim - you say it melted, now show us how you know this or retract the statement

C7- was that beam melted? If so then show us how you know it was. No-one else in the world has said that particular beam was melted, not Astaneh.

Go on run away and hide like a small child or handwave or make up some other excuse. That's all you are good for is making excuses.

Why do you believe Astaneh when he allegedly says "melted girders" and cite him as evidence yet completely ignore him when he agrees with the NIST report? Why C7 why? By your own standard you cannot use him.

 

[Christopher7]

No, it is not theoretical and it explains high temp corrosion.

It does NOT explain the high temperatures in the WTC 7 debris pile.

It happens in jet turbines exposed to ocean salts like sodium sulfate which is a high-heat environment.

That is entirely different than the conditions in the debris pile.

 

[Toke]

Do you still temper them by plunging them into slaves?

Quencing* not tempering.

*spelling?

 

[Christopher7]

No it's not silliness - you are making the claim about that photo - show us which part of the photo indicates that it melted.

You linked to this document and provided the photo http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf

Nowhere in that document does it state that that beam was melted. Abolhassan Astaneh does not say that beam was melted. C7 says that the beam was melted. I am asking you how you know this and to show us how indicating the parts of the beam that show the evidence.

You are making the claim - you say it melted, now show us how you know this or retract the statement
C7- was that beam melted? If so then show us how you know it was. No-one else in the world has said that particular beam was melted, not Astaneh.

Cut the double talk. You know that Mr. Astaneh said: " I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." on PBS in an interview by Jim Lehrer.

Why do you believe Astaneh when he allegedly says "melted girders"

Allegedly? Please

and cite him as evidence

He saw the melted girder. Do you believe him or not?

yet completely ignore him when he agrees with the NIST report?

He was just repeating the official unproven NIST hypothesis.

 

[beachnut]

Cut the double talk. You know that Mr. Astaneh said: " I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." on PBS in an interview by Jim Lehrer. ...

http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf

You posted the conclusion the WTC towers failed due to fire.

And if you would read the stuff you post, you would find the steel was damaged by fire. FIRE did it, thermite is a delusion.

 

[Egil]

It does NOT explain the high temperatures in the WTC 7 debris pile.

That is entirely different than the conditions in the debris pile.

Is it?

FDNY used fireboats to help fight the fires. And I have never been to NYC let alone NY Harbor but I am assuming lower Manhattan is seawater. Sulfur is .09 percent of seawater.

Fire Command and Control Foundation

Over the course of the next 3 days, three large fireboats would pump twenty four hours a day to supply almost 60,000 gallons of water per minute.

I've done the math. In the course of 72 hours they pumped 259,200,000 gallons or 34,650,000 cubic feet of seawater onto the pile. At 64 pounds per cubit foot that equals 2,221,065,000 pounds of seawater and at .09 percent of the weight the amount of sulfur is 1,998,958 pounds or 999 tons.

If they continued to aid the efforts to extinguish the flames then the final number will be higher. And they started dumping water from the very beginning.

This in addition to the already existant tons of sulfur compounds and gallons of sulfuric acid.

 

[Tandem Thinking]

Cut the double talk. You know that Mr. Astaneh said: " I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." on PBS in an interview by Jim Lehrer.

Are you dense?

Nowhere in that document does it state that that beam was melted. Abolhassan Astaneh does not say that beam was melted. C7 says that the beam was melted. I am asking you how you know this and to show us how indicating the parts of the beam that show the evidence.

You are making the claim - you say it melted, now show us how you know this or retract the statement

You have just been told that no one except you is claiming that that particular beam melted, and yet you use it as evidence for melting steel.
Is Microsoft Paint too difficult for you?
Where is the melted part of that beam?

He was just repeating the official unproven NIST hypothesis.

So he was mistaken when he agreed with the NIST hypothesis?

 

[funk de fino]

C7 is just about done here. He will however continue to lie and bluster and repeat nonsense.

Time to let him wallow in this pasting.

 

[BigAl]

Who wrote that article? What is their source for assuming the battery banks were acid-lead?

I recall why Ni-Cad batteries are non-existent for UPS applications: Ni-Cad batteries stink for floating-charge applications. They lose capacity and die. A UPS is trickle-charged all the time and that would kill a Ni-Cad battery. Properly designed and maintained lead-acid batteries work for years.

Having selected and purchased several UPS systems with price tags up to about a quarter million bucks, I don't know where I would find a corporate battery UPS with anything but lead-acid batteries.

Lead-acid in this application is ubiquitous. It it wasn't, I would have specified.

The fact that someone reinforced the floor system sure looks like they put in a large, heavy UPS system. That would have lead-acid batteries.

... and then by Fuji Bank again in 1999, when Fuji Bank, too, performed further expensive truss reinforcement work, to accommodate a system known confusingly enough as UPS (uninterruptible power supply).
http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2008/03/nist-confirms-ups-on-81st-floor-of-wtc2.html

This was the corner of the floor where we saw molten metal flow from.

Every PBX in WTC would have has a lead-acid UPS. You don't have a clue what I am talking about.

 

[Toke]

I recall why Ni-Cad batteries are non-existent for UPS applications: Ni-Cad batteries stink for floating-charge applications. They lose capacity and die. A UPS is trickle-charged all the time and that would kill a Ni-Cad battery. Properly designed and maintained lead-acid batteries work for years.

Thanks, there it was.
Lead batteries are damaged by deep discharge, Ni-Cad require it.