Molten Steel

[Toke]

Galvanised steel pans is steel with a thin coating of zink.
When I weld on it, the the zink will turn into white powder* and the steel act like any other steel.
A better welder would grind off the zink before welding.

* zink oxide I guess.
The zink´s in our ballast tanks are coated with a layer of white slime, probably zink oxide too.

 

[A W Smith]

! And that is where the similarities END!!!!

I believe 100% in the governmenst official account. I am just querying the metal type used for the pans. I am uncertain to this. On my construction site we are using galvanised steel pans which has a melting point of 785° F (419° C). I am asking is it possible that those pans from the WTC could have melted?

This could be used to show truthers that the ssource for molten metal may have come from here.

its actually the zinc that has the lower melting point

 

[Gravy]

What type of metal were these pans made from?

22-gauge steel, galvanized with zinc.

We are currently using galvanised steel for such pans on the job I am working. Galvanised steel has a much lower melting point than steel (785° F (419° C)).

I doubt this. I'd like to see some evidence of that.

ETA: the MSDS for galvanized steel shows a melting point of 785 F: that's the lowest melting point its constituents, the zinc. If the steel melted at that temperature, it would melt during the galvanizing process. I would expect some of that zinc to have melted in the towers.

 

[Christopher7]

You have been given other photos that show it orange.
here some poured outside not even shaded
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5899/pouringaluminumoutsider.jpg

Some what?

The photo you posted is photographic sophistry.

Most people here have acknowledged that molten aluminum appears silver in daylight.

Even NIST knows that aluminum appears silver in daylight.
That's why they tried to explain the yellow-hot molten metal falling from the south tower by making the baseless claim that it was aluminum mixed with large amounts of organic materials.


NIST FAQ: "[FONT=&quot]Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"

[/FONT]There is no scientific evidence to support the theory of molten aluminum mixing with organic materials.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[BigAl]

Some what?

The photo you posted is photographic sophistry.

Most people here have acknowledged that molten aluminum appears silver in daylight.

Pure aluminum.

What came out of the towers wasn't pure aluminum.

 

[T.A.M.]

so Chris, care to speculate as to the cause of the orange molten aluminum if all of the pictures people have presented to you here.

TAM

 

[Gravy]

Pure aluminum.

What came out of the towers wasn't pure aluminum.

I posted a video above of molten aluminum that's quite orange in daylight, outdoors. With pure aluminum, it all depends on the temperature. The dirtier the aluminum is, the higher its emissivity will be. The formerly molten WTC aluminum I handled was nearly black, although I can't say when that darkening occurred.

 

[Christopher7]

I posted a video above of molten aluminum that's quite orange in daylight, outdoors.

No you didn't.

With pure aluminum, it all depends on the temperature.

Source?

The dirtier the aluminum is, the higher its emissivity will be.

There is no scientific evidence to support this assumption.

 

[Sunstealer]

Pure aluminum.

What came out of the towers wasn't pure aluminum.

Added colouration etc so that Chris might actually read it. I doubt he'll understand the significance but there you go.

Lets ask him a question or two that I doubt he can answer but which most people could with 30 seconds of wiki education could.

Are modern commercial airliners predominantly manufactured with commercial grade (pure) aluminium? Yes/No

If no, then what type of aluminium are they made from.

Aluminium Alloy(s)

C7 - What is an alloy?

In general if an alloy melts, do the various elements that make up the alloy separate out (immiscible) or do they mix (miscible)?

http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/phase-diagrams/printall.php
http://www.asminternational.org/AsmEnterprise/APD/help/Intro.aspx

If an alloys constituents are immiscible in the liquid phase then how can you form the solid alloy? Think about this one hard. It will give you the answer as to why pure aluminium could not be the material but would have been an alloy.

One of the answers to this question is Powder Metallurgy

Therefore, any aluminium from the aircraft was not pure aluminium. Secondly this melted aluminium alloy would have contained other elements from burning material that came into contact with it. C7 has been shown this, repeatedly, from various sources, but is being pig headed, because he knows that if he acknowledges that he is wrong, it completely destroys his argument of "molten metal/steel"

If the metal seen had been steel, then we could guarantee that there was a sustained temperature of around 1400°C. Firstly this would render all steel and anything with a lower liquidus temperature to liquid. This material would mix (aluminium is readily soluble in liquid iron) and therefore claiming that the material seen is only steel is incorrect. Thirdly if such temperatures were sustainable then the building would have started to collapse before liquid material was seen. Steel structural components that are not solid don't hold any weight.

You only have to look at what liquid steel does to refractory materials to understand what it would do to building materials to understand that if liquid steel had been present it would have attacked everything it came into contact with.

 

[Sunstealer]

Addition to post #1649. What else do we know about alloys and the difference between them and their pure metal constituents? A Binary phase diagram will give the answer as will chemistry knowledge from the age of 12.

 

[Christopher7]

What came out of the towers wasn't pure aluminum.

Added colouration etc so that Chris might actually read it.

So what?
There is NO evidence that the aluminum alloy used in airplanes can mix with organic material or glow yellow in daylight at any temperature.

Secondly this melted aluminium alloy would have contained other elements from burning material that came into contact with it.

Baseless assumption.

If the metal seen had been steel, then we could guarantee that there was a sustained temperature of around 1400°C.

Baseless assumption. Ignores the possibility of thermite.

 

[twinstead]

Chris I wouldn't throw around phrases like "baseless assumption" and "ignores the possibility of" too much. It makes you look like a hypocrite. Just some words of advice.

 

[Christopher7]

Chris I wouldn't throw around phrases like "baseless assumption" and "ignores the possibility of" too much.

Please present some evidence to the contrary or dispense with the advise.

 

[Sunstealer]

What came out of the towers wasn't pure aluminum.
So what?

Well for a start the melting point would be less than that of pure aluminium wouldn't it? I'll give you some strong advice. When I ask you to answer the questions it's to educate you and lead you to knowledge that will get you to the right answer in a logical fashion. If you would just answer the simple questions and read the material in the links then you would learn and wouldn't look so ignorant. This stuff is meat and drink to me. When you keep on about pure Al and 660°C it shows you are ignorant about alloys.

There is NO evidence that the aluminum alloy used in airplanes can mix with organic material or glow yellow in daylight at any temperature.

Baseless assumption.

No it's not - liquid metal will always result in a higher solubility for other metals and gases - how do you think that an aluminium alloy is produced in the first place? You have been repeatedly shown papers and even people melting aluminium and plastic (an organic) together. Admit you are wrong or show us in a peer reviewed paper that organics cannot mix with aluminium otherwise it's you with the baseless assumption.

Baseless assumption. Ignores the possibility of thermite.

Baseless assumption - please show your sources.

Unless you can you have nothing to go on. I have because if the temperature is not high enough liquid steel will cool. What happens when it cools? Yes that's right C7 it solidifies.

How much liquid metal do you estimate fell from that window? If it was steel calculate the volume of this steel. Type in the weight at this site it will give you the volume.

Where was this volume of steel previous to it falling out of the tower? It would have pooled before exiting. If that were the case then you have to show how it was kept liquid.

 

[Christopher7]

Well for a start the melting point would be less than that of pure aluminium wouldn't it?

So what? That does not alter the FACT that there is no scientific evidence that molten aluminum can mix with organic material.

liquid metal will always result in a higher solubility for other metals and gases

Not organic matreial.

how do you think that an aluminium alloy is produced in the first place?

By adding copper, silicon, magnesium, zinc, chromium, zirconium, tin and sometimes lithium compositions.
http://www.materialsengineer.com/E-Aluminum.htm

You have been repeatedly shown papers and even people melting aluminium and plastic (an organic) together.

Not so. Please post a specific verifiable reference.

Admit you are wrong or show us in a peer reviewed paper that organics cannot mix with aluminium otherwise it's you with the baseless assumption.

You have it backwards.
NIST said liquid aluminum "[FONT=&quot]very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers)[/FONT]"

This is a baseless assumption, not a viable explanation based on science.

Until NIST can establish that it is possible for molten aluminum to mix with organic materials, they have NOT established that the molten metal falling from the south tower could be aluminum.

Baseless assumption. Ignores the possibility of thermite.

Baseless assumption - please show your sources.

Thremite burns at 2500°C and melts steel.

How much liquid metal do you estimate fell from that window? If it was steel calculate the volume of this steel. Type in the weight at this site it will give you the volume.

Where was this volume of steel previous to it falling out of the tower? It would have pooled before exiting. If that were the case then you have to show how it was kept liquid.

Subject shift. Asking for speculation. Seeking to avoid this fact:

[FONT=&quot]The NIST FAQ tries to say the yellow-hot molten metal falling from the south tower [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is aluminum [/FONT][FONT=&quot]by supposing that it that mixed with organic materials.

There is NO scientific evidence that this is possible. [/FONT]

 

[buka001]

22-gauge steel, galvanized with zinc.

I doubt this. I'd like to see some evidence of that.

ETA: the MSDS for galvanized steel shows a melting point of 785 F: that's the lowest melting point its constituents, the zinc. If the steel melted at that temperature, it would melt during the galvanizing process. I would expect some of that zinc to have melted in the towers.

I got the melting point from the MSDS, we have on site. I misunderstood it that the whole pan would melt at that temperature, not the zinc on its own. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

I was just asking a question ... evidently a dumb one at that!

 

[bje]

So what? That does not alter the FACT that there is no scientific evidence that molten aluminum can mix with organic material.

There's no scientific evidence of molten metal in the "meteorite" but you claim there is. Why?

Not organic matreial.

Not molten metal. None. Zero. Zilch. But you can't admit it.

 

[Sunstealer]

By adding copper, silicon, magnesium, zinc, chromium, zirconium, tin and sometimes lithium compositions.
http://www.materialsengineer.com/E-Aluminum.htm

What, so just mixing them up creates an alloy? If I take the relevant quantities and mix them I can just create an alloy? What else do you need? (realise that I have a degree in the science you are talking about and spent 10+ years in that field). Just linking to a page with Aluminium alloy designations, which I'm extremely familiar with, isn't going to do it. How do you go about creating an alloy C7?

Not so. Please post a specific verifiable reference.

Go back and reread WhiteLion's posts where he links to several sources. I know you claim those links don't work, but they worked for me and everyone else who linked to them. Stop being lazy.

You have it backwards.
NIST said liquid aluminum "[FONT=&quot]very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers)[/FONT]"

This is a baseless assumption, not a viable explanation based on science.

Until NIST can establish that it is possible for molten aluminum to mix with organic materials, they have NOT established that the molten metal falling from the south tower could be aluminum.

And no one else had managed to prove that it's steel or iron. And please don't post that picture and a colour chart because neither support your position.

You have been shown time and time again that your organic claim is not the case. There is even a series of pictures of people melting hard drives down that contain aluminium and plastic. It's right there in front of your face, but you choose to ignore it and try to nit pick. It has been shown that at higher temperatures aluminium alloys in the liquid state have a colour that is not silver. Why do you ignore this? The outside photos kindly provided by WhiteLion prove this.

Prove that the material 9falling from the tower is a metal and secondly that it's iron or steel. You can't - (btw a colour chart isn't going to do it.)

Thremite burns at 2500°C and melts steel.

And lemon cake tastes good. What's your point? I can throw a good half dozen things at you that will be hot enough to melt steel.

eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tt7RG3UR4c - it's a youtube vid so you'll probably click on it and allow it as evidence rather than flounder at a technical paper. See, that's hot enough to melt steel - there is no difference between my claim and yours - they both melt steel - so what? Tell us which parts of the structure were needed to be melted by thermite. Calclulate how much thermite was needed.

Infact I don't think you can calculate how much liquid iron (Fe) is produced from 1kg of thermite using this equation.

Fe₂O₃ + 2Al --> Al₂O₃ +2Fe

so how on earth are you going to show where all this liquid steel/iron came from? One of your fellow truthers suggested 8 tons. What is your estimate and how did this liquid iron/steel get there?

You have nowhere to go to, no-one to parrot, no woo or BS to twist, no mind to nor education. You exclaim thermite, but it might as well be marmite. Show me pictures of steel very close to it's melting point running downwards due to gravity and not solidifying.

How many grammes of liquid iron can one gramme of thermite produce?
How many grammes of liquid steel can this produce?

Show a paper or do the calculations that show which parts of the structure needed to be cut to cause collapse. Then calculate the amount of thermite needed to do this work

If you can show this then you might have an argument - just shouting THERMITE! is Baseless assumption.

Find out the answer C7 otherwise your assumptions are baseless - your words.

Subject shift. Asking for speculation. Seeking to avoid this fact:

[FONT=&quot]The NIST FAQ tries to say the yellow-hot molten metal falling from the south tower [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is aluminum [/FONT][FONT=&quot]by supposing that it that mixed with organic materials.

There is NO scientific evidence that this is possible. [/FONT]

Burned organic materials - there is a huge difference. How would dust, soot and ash particles, from burned organic material, be repelled from liquid aluminium alloy at approximately 500°C?

 

[Jono]

The fact that molten aluminum is silver in daylight has been established and is accepted by everyone including NIST.

Yes, around melting temps, this is not something I have negated, but you pretend as if aluminum, being the only metal in the world with this quality, can only appear as silvery indepedant of temperature.

There is no precedent or scientific evidence that aluminum can mix with organic materials.

Why do you say the above when not only have I provided thorough scientific texts on organic materials mix and combined within aluminum. You are just ignoring the clarifications, then you make argue about another point only to return to the initial and already addressed claims.

Re-cap take three:
If aluminum and organic materials can't mix then how can one extract aluminum from aluminum-organic matter? Or better, yet, how can the latter even exist? How could aluminum-organic chemicals exist?

The only known explanation for the yellow molten metal is steel.

Yes you would say that in spite of everything we've been through here, you sure a stubborn and odd one trying to tell a metalsmith such a demonstrably dumb thing. Why is it the only known explanation? Because it has a yellow glow emission? Yes, that's your bottom line isn't it?

 

[Gravy]

Yes you would say that in spite of everything we've been through here, you sure a stubborn and odd one trying to tell a metalsmith such a demonstrably dumb thing. Why is it the only known explanation? Because it has a yellow glow emission? Yes, that's your bottom line isn't it?

Keep in mind who you're dealing with and if continuing to respond, after years of his nonsensical whining, is wise.

Christopher 7:

"Fires in buildings don't burn hot enough to weaken steel I beams. Where you get this stuff, one of those debunking sites?"

"What doesn't make sence is putting fireproofing on steel box beams that are 2 ft. by 4 1/2 ft. and 4 in. thick. Why fireproof something that is fireproof ?"

"There were NO FIRES anywhere in the building EXCEPT WHERE THE PLANES HIT."

"The MOLTEN METAL could have ONLY be caused by THERMATE."

"Thermate is made to melt steel and is therefore a possibility.
There are NO other possibilities."

"There simply is no other explanation."

"Weather or not you believe Jones, you won't be able to find a qualified person to say otherwise."

"Denial will not protect you from reality."