Molten Steel

[Toke]

So everybody is lying but you Chris?

You point to a photo and yell steel and we're supposed to believe you but when multiple posters show you photos of aluminum all you can do is yell fake.

Chris get a bottle of MAPP gas and a torch head and you can heat aluminum up to 2000 deg F and see with your own eyes.

N. B. The above experiment should only be done with adult supervision as high temps can be dangerous.

The experiment above could be misleading. I have soldered cobberwire onto aluminium plate. Sometimes it will get too hot and dissolve rather suddently.
That made me doubt glowing aluminium.

You will need a container to be able to heat it past melting point and to the point where it starts glowing. Try placing a large spoon in a vice.

 

[T.A.M.]

Toke:

your Avatar is going to give me a seizure.

TAM

 

[Toke]

your Avatar is going to give me a seizure.

That would be a shame.

Here is a great one, possible the best looking on the forum.

 

[T.A.M.]

much better (by the way, I wasn't asking you change it, just found it hard to look at, even out of the corner of by eye).

TAM

 

[Toke]

I have decided I need an avatar, and this one is much better than first try.
(actually I had the same problem)

Glad you have good taste in avatars

 

[Sunstealer]

How many tons?
How much energy is required to heat your "tons" of "metal" to liquid temperatures?
If this energy didn't come from the fire(s) then where did it come from?
If you claim a source (such as thermite) then you must show how much liquid Iron (Fe) is produced via the thermite reaction.
Secondly you need to show how much liquid steel is produced when the thermite reaction heats steel columns/structural members.
The questions ask for speculation. They are just a diversion.

Because that has nothing to do with the point.

I'm not making assumptions, NIST is.

NIST is unable to show the scientific data because there is none. So they have nothing but a baseless assumption that organic materials can mix with molten aluminum.

No lets look at the argument. Correct any that you feel are wrong.

C7 claims the metal from the tower is steel.
C7 claims that thermite is the only material capable of melting steel outside of a foundry.
C7 claims that thermite is the only viable source for the production of this liquid steel.

It's you that are making these claims, therefore it's up to you to show evidence for this.

So far you have not done so. You claim that the photos we show you are unscientific/possibly doctored etc but you cannot see that your own evidence is not upto the same standard that you wish of us. That's hypocrisy.

Take back your claim of liquid iron/steel.

It's you that has been speculating. Scientists make assumptions all the time, if you are going to claim liquid steel/thermite then you have to put some figures down on paper to show if it's possible or not - that is the whole point. What would happen if your figures showed that you need 100 billion tons of thermite to achieve what you are saying? Would that be viable? You see you have to do the maths to see whether it's possible.

If you do continue with the thermite/liquid steel shenanigans then me asking you to do calculations to show how this can occur is perfectly valid. You only think it's a diversion, because you haven't the faintest clue where to start or how to do them. Put up or shut up.

I've actually got a paper where someone actually does this, it's easy to find, however, you wouldn't be able to read it because you don't understand Stoichiometry or thermodynamics - it might as well be in Swahili as far as you are concerned.

You have no understanding of the thermite reaction, you have no understanding of alloys or even basic chemistry (impurities lower melting points), you have no experience of working with metals solid or liquid, you use photos that you can't back up, you've been shown that you are wrong many times yet still cling to disproved notions, you are dishonest because you misquote, the list is endless.

It must be galling to get spanked so hard time and time again yet like a dog you keep coming back for more - it's highly entertaining!

 

[A W Smith]

Where is the bright phosphorus like glow common to a thermite reaction at the source of this alleged "molten steel" pouring from the north east corner of the south tower????

 

[T.A.M.]

I have decided I need an avatar, and this one is much better than first try.
(actually I had the same problem)

Glad you have good taste in avatars

For me an Avatar is an expression of my purpose and who I am in relation to the reason(s) why I post on said forum where the Avatar is used. The one I currently have is the one I am most pleased with.

TAM

 

[Christopher7]

There is a lack of documentation from you also.

True. I have acknowledged that.

There is no scientific validity for any of your claims.

False. I am saying that there is no scientific evidence to back up NIST's claim that the molten metal falling from the tower was aluminum.

You said most people here, that was a lie. Are you shifting goalposts now?

I asked if you believe aluminum is silvery in daylight?

You've been given sources and explanation by people who know what they are talking about. You refuse to read them or cry fake.

I have read what these serious people have said. They provide no documentation to support their claims of aluminum glowing orange in daylight.

As has been said before, give us any of the same type of verification for any of your fantasy claims. The claw photo for example.

The crab claw was taken at the trade center site. That much is verified. What is in the claw is subject to debate.

ETA: It is consistent with what Mark Loizeauz said about molten metal being scooped up.

 

[Christopher7]

Once again, you have deleted the word, "Pure" from the NIST statement.
There was no pure metal flowing out of a tower on 9/11.

There is no scientific evidence that aluminum can mix with organic material as NIST posits.

 

[Christopher7]

No lets look at the argument. Correct any that you feel are wrong.

C7 claims the metal from the tower is steel.
C7 claims that thermite is the only material capable of melting steel outside of a foundry.
C7 claims that thermite is the only viable source for the production of this liquid steel.

It's you that are making these claims, therefore it's up to you to show evidence for this.

I am eliminating the alternative that NIST is claiming which leaves steel as the molten metal falling from the tower. If you want evidence of thermite, stop asking stupid questions asking for calculations based on speculation and read what Stephen Jones has writen about the evidence of thermite.
Your "It cant be thermite because" arguments are just a denial tactic.

The point I am making is:

There is no scientific evidence to back up NIST's claim that the molten aluminum can mix with organic material.

 

[Toke]

I have read what these serious people have said. They provide no documentation to support their claims of aluminum glowing orange in daylight.

You have been provided with a simple test procedure that will let you check for youself.

 

[Sunstealer]

If you want evidence of thermite, stop asking stupid questions asking for calculations based on speculation and read what Stephen Jones has writen about the evidence of thermite.

I have read Jones' drivel and examined it professionally - it's not even undergraduate standard material, not that you would know what standard an undergraduate would be expected to produce. If I produced a material of that standard I would lose my job. Colleagues and engineers would laugh at me.

Jones produces zero evidence for thermite - his spectra are not quantitative and therefore cannot be used to determine compounds. If you believe Jones' BS then there is no hope for you at all. Why do you believe Jones when everyone shows that he is wrong? You are not qualified to comment on Jones' nonsense yet you believe it hook line and sinker. Jones has been debunked time and time again and has zero credibility left.

If I thought Jones was onto something I'd be the first to back him and show how he is correct, unfortunately his methods are poor and his conclusions have no backing.

What would happen if I showed you calculations that showed that you would need truckloads of thermite to carry out what you are saying? That's why the calculations are important. You can show whether or not thermite is even feasible. Jones doesn't do this, he just says thermite and the uneducated swallow it because they want to believe "inside job". There is no evidence for thermite - infact it's as silly as space lasers and mini-nukes.

 

[beachnut]

... If you want evidence of thermite, stop asking stupid questions asking for calculations based on speculation and read what Stephen Jones has writen about the evidence of thermite.
Your "It cant be thermite because" arguments are just a denial tactic.

The point I am making is:

There is no scientific evidence to back up NIST's claim that the molten aluminum can mix with organic material.

Thermite is a dirt dumb delusion made up by Jones four years after 911 due to some unknown bias he has; his work relating thermite to the WTC is nuts. It is not thermite because there was no thermite planted in the WTC for 911. Thermite planted in the WTC is a nut case delusion with no evidence, no products from thermite, one big zero.

You are not a metallurgist, why not talk to one instead of making up delusions based on your unknown biases.

 

[Christopher7]

You have been provided with a simple test procedure that will let you check for youself.

? ? ?

 

[Christopher7]

I have read Jones' drivel and examined it professionally

You are entitled to your opinion.

Jones produces zero evidence for thermite

Professor Jones has a great deal of evidence including thermite chips found in the dust. You can deny all the evidence if you like.

his spectra are not quantitative and therefore cannot be used to determine compounds. If you believe Jones' BS then there is no hope for you at all. Why do you believe Jones when everyone shows that he is wrong?

Everyone? Please, Govt. disinfo agents and JERFers are slamming him. Most people can see the body of evidence he presents is valid.

The govt. uses absurd statement to explain the molten metal in the debris pile.
"[FONT=&quot]Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" [/FONT]

Fires in a debris pile cannot get anywhere near hot enough to melt steel.

Are you dumb enough to think they can?

They came up with a half baked unsubstantiated reason for denying that the falling molten metal was steel because they know that office fires cannot melt steel. The molten metal was NOT aluminum.

The molten steel falling from the tower was far above the temperatures attainable in office fires.

If I thought Jones was onto something I'd be the first to back him and show how he is correct, unfortunately his methods are poor and his conclusions have no backing.

You are in total denial of anything that goes against the Official Collapse Theory.

What would happen if I showed you calculations that showed that you would need truckloads of thermite to carry out what you are saying?

I would say you haven't got a clue how much it would take. You don't know what devices may exist or the different kinds of thermite that were at the time. You make estimates based on your insufficient knowledge of where columns were cut or what mix of explosives and/or thermite were used. Your sole purpose is to come up with huge numbers so you can say "It can't be because". You are fooling no one but yourselves.

 

[funk de fino]

True. I have acknowledged that.

Yet you still accuse people of murder on that basis

False. I am saying that there is no scientific evidence to back up NIST's claim that the molten metal falling from the tower was aluminum.

More than you have to say its steel.

I asked if you believe aluminum is silvery in daylight?

You're lying, you said most people here accept aluminium is silver in daylight.

I have read what these serious people have said. They provide no documentation to support their claims of aluminum glowing orange in daylight.

So, only your "experts" are good enough?

The crab claw was taken at the trade center site. That much is verified. What is in the claw is subject to debate.

Who took it, what was the time, what was the lighting, what was the building it was cleaning up, what was the temp?

If you cant answer any of this then the picture is useless.

Easy when you play that game eh?

ETA: It is consistent with what Mark Loizeauz said about molten metal being scooped up.

Incorrect that is not a bucket it is a claw, it cannot scoop up molten metal therfore is not what Mr Loizeaux was describing. Try again.

Amazing how Mr Loizeaux is only useful for one statement eh? He thinks you lot are all scumbags.

 

[funk de fino]

Professor Jones has a great deal of evidence including thermite chips found in the dust. You can deny all the evidence if you like.

Rubbish, why has it taken him so long to produce anything more about them after apparently sending them to independant people for analysis.

Because they are not what he says they are. He is a proven fraud.

 

[Sunstealer]

You are entitled to your opinion.

Professor Jones has a great deal of evidence including thermite chips found in the dust. You can deny all the evidence if you like.

Everyone? Please, Govt. disinfo agents and JERFers are slamming him. Most people can see the body of evidence he presents is valid.

The govt. uses absurd statement to explain the molten metal in the debris pile.
"[FONT=&quot]Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" [/FONT]

I love the way C7 clings to Jones' coat tails, but doesn't have the education, knowledge or experience to examine Jones' findings, yet thinks those who do, don't know what they are talking about.

My opinion is a professional one and I look at the paper's merits. I couldn't care less about the official story, but when it comes to the metallurgical side of things I take an interest. If Jones' was right then I would be able to see that as would thousands of other engineers. The problem is Jones' writings are not very good. My experience and knowledge in the field he is attempting to work in shows that.

Why has Jones not had any of his papers acknowledged and published in any of the hundreds of engineering journals available? What's this lunatic talk about "disinfo agents"? It makes you sound kooky. Jones' paper is as wrong as saying 2+2= 76. Why is it disinfo to show this and then mock the person saying it? Jones' "work" is amateurish and incomplete, he doesn't show any evidence to back thermite what so ever - the chips he claims are thermite are red paint - you've been shown this. It's sad.

Fires in a debris pile cannot get anywhere near hot enough to melt steel.

Then you must conclude that if any liquid metal were present then it couldn't have been steel.

Are you dumb enough to think they can?

Nope see above, but you are dumb enough not to be able to use reason and critical thinking to come to the likely conclusion. Instead you dream of thermite but don't show how thermite could account for what you claim.

They came up with a half baked unsubstantiated reason for denying that the falling molten metal was steel because they know that office fires cannot melt steel. The molten metal was NOT aluminum.

You cannot prove that it was steel. You can't prove that it wasn't aluminium and we have successfully shown lurkers that you are incorrect.

The molten steel falling from the tower was far above the temperatures attainable in office fires.

Again you have put the cart before the horse. You must get away from this idea that the only metal the flowing material could be is steel. If you can't then you'll always be in the trap of trying to prove liquid steel and this can only lead to wooish behaviour. You say thermite I say aliens, you say thermate I say pink unicorns from alpha centuri melted the beams - you can't prove either.

You are in total denial of anything that goes against the Official Collapse Theory.

I've never read the entire NIST report I've concentrated on what I know and that's the metallurgical side of things.

I would say you haven't got a clue how much it would take. You don't know what devices may exist or the different kinds of thermite that were at the time. You make estimates based on your insufficient knowledge of where columns were cut or what mix of explosives and/or thermite were used.

I would say you haven't got a clue how much it would take. You don't know what devices may exist or the different kinds of thermite that were at the time. You make estimates based on your insufficient knowledge of where columns were cut or what mix of explosives and/or thermite were used.

You really ought to read what you write because your own words describe your position exactly.

Your sole purpose is to come up with huge numbers so you can say "It can't be because". You are fooling no one but yourselves.

No, my whole point is to ask you to come up with the numbers to show it's possible. Why don't you show that it's possible? Why do you always run and hide when anyone asks you for any detail or to show calculations.

All you have is one idea that you cannot show is even remotely feasible. Do some work and show how thermite could possibly be the source of heat to produce all this "molten steel" you are convinced existed. Can you do that or are you going to hand wave it away and just scream thermite at us, again.

 

[Sunstealer]

Incidentally the last thing you are going to do with rivers or pools of liquid steel is pick the damn stuff up in a digger bucket. What are you going to do with it? Where are you going to transport it to? It would destroy the bucket in a short period so you couldn't take it very far. There is absolutely no point in trying to remove liquid steel from the pile, it makes no sense. Much better to let it solidify and then remove it.

C7 - why would anyone in their right mind try to move liquid steel in a digger bucket and where did they take it?