MLM

[icerat]

Because it is a CULT. One of the first thing my son's 'upline' tried to get him to do was to sever all contact with anyone that didn't believe in his new 'dream'.

Well frankly I'm glad you did "get him out", I think that kind of behavior is pretty obscene and I have little regard for the group(s) that promote that kind of thing. It is not however something universal to the Amway business, indeed I doubt it's even common these days. I'd be willing to bet I can guess which group he got involved with (any bets Newton Trino?)

It wasn't a dream, it's a NIGHTMARE. The only people making money, at this point, are the ones at the very top of the pyramid. (And that is before the tools. Add those in and it is offensively obvious who's really making the 'big bucks'.)

Dave, I understand your reaction, but that's not the way the model works at all - or at least not the way it's supposed to. Yes it can be abused, but inherent in the model is that the person who generates the business should make (by far) the majority of the profit from that business. Indeed, draw out the income distribution and the vast majority of income does NOT go to the top.

They load these people (mainly late teens I bet) down with tapes, books and accessories and KATE, a voicemail system that costs them yet ANOTHER $50 or so a month.(Which they can't afford to lose.) They then want them to IMMEDIATELY attend high priced 'rallies' so they can get their thinking 'straight'. If it looks like a cult, and sounds like a cult......

Bingo - KATE, a product offered by one particular group and some of it's offshoots. What a surprise. These folk seem to be the only ones generating much in the way of complaints these days. May I ask that you write to Amway with some specifics of what happened with your son, including the names of his upline? Check amway.com or PM me direct and I can give you contact info. Ranting on a forum doesn't help stop the "abusers". You may be upset at them for potentially causing problems with your son, your reaction is 100% proof they're actively damaging my business.

Still, like in any business, there's some expenses and startup costs involved, ones circumstances should always be considered when assessing what to spend and where. The way I operate (and the way I was taught to operate) is to cover all of these types of expenses through profit from selling products to retail clients.

No, that is what folks like YOU call them to you "downline" when they fail to achieve their pumped up dreams. No one joins to make $100 a month and you very well KNOW it.

No Dave, you're wrong. Plenty of people join for that reason.

They join with dreams of making BIG BUCKS with little real work. And who pumped up those impossible dreams? People like YOU!!

I ask every single person I sponsor into my business what their income goal is and over what period. The vast majority of them want $1000 to $1500/mth extra and say they are willing to put in a couple of years to achieve that. Some want the big $$$$, some want less. Many join just to get the products at cheaper pricing, though that's not as big an incentive in the US these days, with free shipping to customers.

This crap takes advantage of those in our society who are on the bottom edge. Close to broke, they seek some way out of their financial delimma, and along comes Amway to finish the poor suckers off.

Oh yeah, that's why we (as in the group I work with) teach to talk to high achievers, people with good incomes and part of the target market for high quality products.

Here's a question for you:
How many "losers"/people have you personally seen fail at/quit this business. (Not that I really expect an honest answer.)

Nobody is a "loser" for deciding not to pursue an Amway business.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Nobody is a "loser" for deciding not to pursue an Amway business.

That may not be your opinion but it sure is the opinion of a lot of amway scamsters.

 

[daveprime]

I can see the potential business model that should be working within Amway, and if the tools business was removed, it really wouldn't be any different than Avon or Mary Kay. (Though people have been saying that for twenty+ years, so fat chance of that happening.)

And even were they to do that, it wouldn't make the business an easy one. There are just too many alternatives available to consumers nowadays.

And judging by past history, the 'tool trade" has traditionally been the way high level diamonds and above make their money. (NOT the detergent sales!) Looking on the web, negative "this bankrupted me" stories outnumber the "I'm rich" stories 1000 to 1.

Any business that has a 99+% failure rate is not a good model to emulate.... especially from the bottom levels....

 

[NewtonTrino]

But you don't understand Dave, if you aren't rich yet you haven't bought enough tapes and gone to enough brainwashing weekends! Just keep doing that and soon you'll be rich!! Trust me, I have a rolex so I must know what I'm talking about!!

 

[daveprime]

Oh, I understand Newton. I was talking hypothetically.

I've seen several different branches of these folks at work over the years. They are all the same. Every time I see one of their reps all I hear is a giant sucking sound. It is the sound of all the money that person has flushed down the toilet in search of that mythical "magic up" that will make all of their dreams come true!

*sigh*

I try to live by something I picked up in an old Heinlein sci-fi novel. TANSTAAFL.
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Amway/Quixtar is predicated on a faulty premise. Rather than truly being based on selling 'stuff', it is based on getting enough people 'downline' from you to guarantee you income. This rarely if EVER happens though. Even if you do, after years of losing money, happen to get a few, the corp can (and will) take them away from you if you leave the business. In other words, it is never really your business. It is theirs.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I try to live by something I picked up in an old Heinlein sci-fi novel. TANSTAAFL.
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

A fav of mine as well.

Amway/Quixtar is predicated on a faulty premise. Rather than truly being based on selling 'stuff', it is based on getting enough people 'downline' from you to guarantee you income. This rarely if EVER happens though. Even if you do, after years of losing money, happen to get a few, the corp can (and will) take them away from you if you leave the business. In other words, it is never really your business. It is theirs.

Of course if you're making money most of the people below you are losing money (that goes into your pocket). This is what makes it unethical.

So even if you are "successful" you are still a scammer. I believe in delivering real value in the products I create, not brainwashing people to buy garbage.

 

[icerat]

That may not be your opinion but it sure is the opinion of a lot of amway scamsters.

Maybe so, but my opinion is the opinion of (a) the founders of Amway and (b) the vast majority of Amway leaders - ie not scamsters

I can see the potential business model that should be working within Amway, and if the tools business was removed, it really wouldn't be any different than Avon or Mary Kay. (Though people have been saying that for twenty+ years, so fat chance of that happening.)

Dave, for the heck of it, just pretend there's been plenty of people operating just that way, and using and promoting tools as tools for building Amway, not a profit centre.

That's the world I live in.

And even were they to do that, it wouldn't make the business an easy one. There are just too many alternatives available to consumers nowadays.

No business is easy to start.

Looking on the web, negative "this bankrupted me" stories outnumber the "I'm rich" stories 1000 to 1.

Not true at all Dave. I actually analysed the "stories" on the net some years back and it was about 1/3 "negative", 1/3 neutral, and 1/3 positive.

In the last few years it's shifted to the positive, and that's not counting all the success stories on Amway Wiki

Any business that has a 99+% failure rate is not a good model to emulate.... especially from the bottom levels....

Perhaps. Amway doesn't have that "failure rate", unless you arbitrarily define "failure" as something other than what the individuals involved would do. I personally believe if you set a goal and reach it, you shouldn't be called a failure because somebody else thinks you should have set some different goal. That's exactly what a number of Amway critics do, including Newton Trino here.

I try to live by something I picked up in an old Heinlein sci-fi novel. TANSTAAFL.
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Probably my favourite author, and I 100% agree with the sentiments.

Amway/Quixtar is predicated on a faulty premise. Rather than truly being based on selling 'stuff', it is based on getting enough people 'downline' from you to guarantee you income.

No it's not. It's predicated on sales volume. How many "people" you profit share with to get that volume is up to you - and indeed, the more people you profit share with, the lower your profit margin. The idea is though that with more time put in by more people, the increased volume will overcome the "expense" of chopping your profit margins.

Just like any other business.

This rarely if EVER happens though. Even if you do, after years of losing money, happen to get a few, the corp can (and will) take them away from you if you leave the business.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. If you leave the business you didn't get your downline "taken" from you, and the corp doesn't get it either. You gave it to your upline.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Maybe so, but my opinion is the opinion of (a) the founders of Amway and (b) the vast majority of Amway leaders - ie not scamsters

In my opinion all amway leaders are scamsters.

 

[daveprime]

You say the view isn't that of Amway or its leaders, and yet they do nothing to stop it. It's almost like they think it might be necessary and okay or something.....

Until the company stops ANY of its people from doing the whole tapes scam, it is merely in collusion and part of the problem....

 

[icerat]

You say the view isn't that of Amway or its leaders, and yet they do nothing to stop it. It's almost like they think it might be necessary and okay or something.....

What evidence do you have they've done nothing to stop it?

And what would you suggest they could do, legally, to an independent business person to prevent such issues?

Until the company stops ANY of its people from doing the whole tapes scam, it is merely in collusion and part of the problem....

Making it a requirement to work only with an accredited company in order to receive numerous bonuses isn't doing anything? Requiring those accredited companies to have contractual, equitable, independently evaluated contracts with their BSM distribution channel is doing nothing?

BTW, have you written to Amway as I asked?

 

[NewtonTrino]

It's ok Dave, Icerat is fine with the tools scam anyway. His upline does it "correctly" by hiding the money behind a corporation so he doesn't mind getting scammed.

 

[daveprime]

BTW, have you written to Amway as I asked?

Tough to do after a year and a half. Those are people that i don't WANT to remember.

And you never really answered my question. How many people have YOU seen quit/leave the business?

 

[NewtonTrino]

He's not going to answer that or the answer will be with some crazy conditions (they weren't ready, they didn't do it right, the learned a lot and moved on to be successful at something else because of amway, blah blah etc etc).

I've personally seen hundreds fail.

 

[icerat]

Dave, the vast majority of people who join Amway at some point do not renew, around 70% don't renew even once. I've no idea the numbers I've "personally seen".

I see the fact it has a low cost of entry (and accompanying refund guarantees), as a positive thing, not a negative thing.

 

[NewtonTrino]

See, I precalled it. Just lame excuses for why there are so many failures.

 

[icerat]

See, I precalled it. Just lame excuses for why there are so many failures.

So you don't think low entry barriers plays any role in "success" rates?

 

[NewtonTrino]

I would argue it's the recruitment tactics and not being honest about how success works in amway. People get in because they are high pressured into it and then get demoralized after they realize reality doesn't match with what they were told. I don't think it's inherent to it being easy to get into.

Short answer: no

 

[daveprime]

I personally think that it has to due with the nature of the program itself. I have seen hard working, committed, serious minded people work their guts out at this thing only to LOSE MONEY month after month.

And yet every month they are prompted to "just hang in there" and "See it through", all the while their pockets are being picked for various 'training materials' and rallies to 'keep their spirits up'. And then when they have nothing left to give, nothing left to spend, and nothing but a pile of debt and lost time, they either quit or are cut loose for failing to produce. Not cool.

 

[icerat]

I would argue it's the recruitment tactics and not being honest about how success works in amway. People get in because they are high pressured into it and then get demoralized after they realize reality doesn't match with what they were told. I don't think it's inherent to it being easy to get into.

Short answer: no

I personally think that it has to due with the nature of the program itself. I have seen hard working, committed, serious minded people work their guts out at this thing only to LOSE MONEY month after month.

And yet every month they are prompted to "just hang in there" and "See it through", all the while their pockets are being picked for various 'training materials' and rallies to 'keep their spirits up'. And then when they have nothing left to give, nothing left to spend, and nothing but a pile of debt and lost time, they either quit or are cut loose for failing to produce. Not cool.

• 50% of people who join never even place an order after joining. (Woodward vs Quixtar)
• 70% of people who join never attend any form of training session or purchase an training/marketing materials. (N21 vital statistics, WWDB parameters)
• 87% of people join primarily for distributor pricing (Amway Japan Annual Report, DSA statistics)

Yet in your opinions the fact that it's so easy to join, with little to no risk, is not a factor in why only a small percentage of people reach a level that you (Newton Trino) arbitrarily set as "success".

Yup, that makes sense.

 

[NewtonTrino]

• 50% of people who join never even place an order after joining. (Woodward vs Quixtar)
• 70% of people who join never attend any form of training session or purchase an training/marketing materials. (N21 vital statistics, WWDB parameters)
• 87% of people join primarily for distributor pricing (Amway Japan Annual Report, DSA statistics)

Yet in your opinions the fact that it's so easy to join, with little to no risk, is not a factor in why only a small percentage of people reach a level that you (Newton Trino) arbitrarily set as "success".

Yup, that makes sense.

So why are these people joining in the first place and then never ordering anything? High pressure sales tactics would explain this... That and lying about what it's really about. For example telling someone to join so they can get distributor pricing yet afterwards they find out that the prices aren't very good even for distributors. Or they are told they will get rich and then they look into the matter a bit.