MLM

[icerat]

What I'm claiming is that this money is exagerrated and that most people in amway make very little compared to the work they put in.

evidence?

But there is no available information on how much profit they make. Income != Profit. Simple concept but it gets by a lot of amway people

Oh right, so the can successfully leave full time employment ... but they're not profiting Uhuh.

I don't dispute that people can become diamond and make this money (although we still aren't talking profit).

Expenses are included in the court affidavits.

However the amount of people who reach this level (which still isn't all that great in terms of income) is miniscule. There are by definition thousands of people needed in an organization to do this and I think most of the time this is a net negative game for people, especially when you include tools.

Yes, it does require at least a thousand - most of whom are simply customers. Which consumables type business doesn't require large numbers of customers to make money?

You of course, contrary to all data, evidence, and common sense - arbitrarily decide that everyone is working hard and spending money. I've given you DSA statistics, I've given you government mandated corporate statistics from other MLMs, I've given you data presented in annual reports of public companies - you just dismiss it all.

It's easy to believe whatever you want when you arbitrarily dismiss all evidence that doesn't support it.

Again you can't prove otherwise because you have ZERO statistics on actual profitibility of IBO's.

I've provided a lot of statistics. Only thing missing is expenses. Amazing that I provide reams of statistics, but because of one missing data point my view should be dismissed - but you have NO statistics at all to support your point of view!

Oh, I know the tool kingpins are pulling in profits!

This was entirely Amway income.

To my knowledge nobody at that level is not involved with selling tools. Again we disagree on whether it's ethical to sell this brainwashing crap.

So ... if I get this straight, what you're pretty much saying is that making millions of dollars a year from Amway doesn't count because you're making money from other things as well?

How do you figure that exactly?

Again, I'm not saying nobody can make money. I'm just saying the claims are exagerrated and you can't prove otherwise.

What claims are exaggerated?

All I'm asking for is ONE diamond business to be independently audited. Hell this can be anonymously as long as the auditor is a professional. I'll even submit my company to the same thing.

To what purpose?

They'll never do it because it would expose the scam.

Even if it was a scam, what would auditing a Diamond business "expose"? Are you claiming the average income figures are bogus? Or are you claiming Diamonds have hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in necessary business expenses?

Not to mention that I've already provided info from independently audited accounts of a Diamond. (Greg Duncan in Chapter 11).

 

[icerat]

Considering that 5000 hrs/52 weeks = 96.1538 hrs/week this does make this constant 20h/wk you are throwing around suspect.

Yeah, if you simply decide to ignore what I said.

It was over 2-5 years taking what used to be a common promotional claim in some groups, not 1 year.

 

[NewtonTrino]

evidence?

I'm not the one asking people to join the scam. You need to provide the evidence that it's not a scam.

Oh right, so the can successfully leave full time employment ... but they're not profiting Uhuh.

Again, anecdotes aren't relevant. Leaving full time employment doesn't mean anything.

Expenses are included in the court affidavits.

Links?

Yes, it does require at least a thousand - most of whom are simply customers. Which consumables type business doesn't require large numbers of customers to make money?

This is simply a lie. How many distributors are in a typical diamond organization?

You of course, contrary to all data, evidence, and common sense - arbitrarily decide that everyone is working hard and spending money. I've given you DSA statistics, I've given you government mandated corporate statistics from other MLMs, I've given you data presented in annual reports of public companies - you just dismiss it all.

It's easy to believe whatever you want when you arbitrarily dismiss all evidence that doesn't support it.

I've provided a lot of statistics. Only thing missing is expenses. Amazing that I provide reams of statistics, but because of one missing data point my view should be dismissed - but you have NO statistics at all to support your point of view!

Without expenses all of your stats are pointless.

This was entirely Amway income.

Look, there are kingpins out there that make plenty of amway income. But they all make tons of tools money.

Do we really need to go down this path again? You've already agreed with me that they make a ton of tool money. We have hundreds of posts and I'm finding this pointless.

So ... if I get this straight, what you're pretty much saying is that making millions of dollars a year from Amway doesn't count because you're making money from other things as well?

How do you figure that exactly?

Go back and read the hundreds of posts in the other thread. I just don't care anymore. Whoever joins this scam without doing their research is getting what they deserve anyway.

Even if it was a scam, what would auditing a Diamond business "expose"? Are you claiming the average income figures are bogus? Or are you claiming Diamonds have hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in necessary business expenses?

Income figures without expenses are pointless. What I really want is broad statistical data about all amway businesses including tool income and an actualy profit number. I'll never get this because they hide it on purpose so that people can't do proper research. If I was starting a franchise I could get this information.

Not to mention that I've already provided info from independently audited accounts of a Diamond. (Greg Duncan in Chapter 11).

Link?

 

[icerat]

I'm not the one asking people to join the scam. You need to provide the evidence that it's not a scam.

Where is the burden? What is the more extraordinary claim?

You are claiming that a 50yr old multi-award winning company operating in 80+ countries and territories is a scam, despite it having been actively investigated by a variety of different authorities a number of times in diffent countries been cleared every single time and generating very very little in the way of complaints.

I on the other hand am not making any particular grand claim at all, just challenging the silly ones that have been made, particularly in the article that began this thread.

Links?

Find it yourself. I've given you enough data, you ignore it even when links are provided.

Time for you to put up or shut up. Where is the evidence to support your claims?

This is simply a lie. How many distributors are in a typical diamond organization?

Already told you. No point saying it again since you consider all official statistics to be lies.

Income figures without expenses are pointless. What I really want is broad statistical data about all amway businesses including tool income and an actualy profit number. I'll never get this because they hide it on purpose so that people can't do proper research. If I was starting a franchise I could get this information.

Except of course I already gave you tool income averages for a major group. You rejected it as lies.

Link?

Google is your friend.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Where is the burden? What is the more extraordinary claim?

You are claiming that a 50yr old multi-award winning company operating in 80+ countries and territories is a scam, despite it having been actively investigated by a variety of different authorities a number of times in diffent countries been cleared every single time and generating very very little in the way of complaints.

I on the other hand am not making any particular grand claim at all, just challenging the silly ones that have been made, particularly in the article that began this thread.

You could say the same thing about plenty of things that are scams. Like the catholic church for example which way more adherents than amway. Amway is an out and out pyramid scam.

If you are recruiting the burden is on you to show it's a good opportunity and not a scam. I think the facts speak for themselves.

Find it yourself. I've given you enough data, you ignore it even when links are provided.

Time for you to put up or shut up. Where is the evidence to support your claims?

I'm not the one saying it's a good opportunity. The burden is clearly on you to convince anyone who wants to get involved.

Already told you. No point saying it again since you consider all official statistics to be lies.

You've already agreed the stats are incomplete.

Except of course I already gave you tool income averages for a major group. You rejected it as lies.

Because it was.

Google is your friend.

I don't care enough. Frankly we've rehashed this enough that I just don't care about it. Someday maybe you'll wake up. I'm not holding my breath though.

I've already made hundreds of posts on this topic so unless something new comes up to talk about then why bother?

 

[icerat]

You could say the same thing about plenty of things that are scams. Like the catholic church for example which way more adherents than amway. Amway is an out and out pyramid scam.

The sine qua non of a pyramid scam is getting paid for recruiting. That doesn't happen at all in Amway (indeed the contrary - it costs me money to recruit someone). Clearly you don't understand the model.

If you are recruiting the burden is on you to show it's a good opportunity and not a scam. I think the facts speak for themselves.

I'm not recruiting. Yes, the facts do speak for themselves - you choose however to ignore most of the facts - or are ignorant of them.

I'm not the one saying it's a good opportunity. The burden is clearly on you to convince anyone who wants to get involved.

Your making the claims, not me. Burden is on you.

You've already agreed the stats are incomplete.

Yup, but what we do have at least supports my position - they don't support yours at all.

I've already made hundreds of posts on this topic so unless something new comes up to talk about then why bother?

Indeed.

 

[NewtonTrino]

The sine qua non of a pyramid scam is getting paid for recruiting. That doesn't happen at all in Amway (indeed the contrary - it costs me money to recruit someone). Clearly you don't understand the model.

You do get paid for recruiting in amway. By selling your downline useless crap and brainwashing them. Almost all groups immediately start people buying "tools" from day 1. Now, you as their direct sponsor might not be "high enough" in the pyramid to profit from this recruiting immediately, but there are many other type of pyramid scams that work in a similar fashion.

Basically amway is a more sophisticated form of this type of scam. Note that the scam actually has 2 pyramids. The amway one and the tools one. This is fantastic from the standpoint of the scammers because it gives them legal cover.

Anyway I've already been over this hundreds of times. If people can't smell the dead fish at this point they're just going to have to find out for themselves what a nightmare amway is.

Your making the claims, not me. Burden is on you.

You are pimping amway. I'm just relating my personal experience that it's a scam based on my inside knowledge that most people wouldn't have access too. I've already posted my opinion and experience in other threads/posts and see no need to rehash it here.

Yup, but what we do have at least supports my position - they don't support yours at all.

Incomplete information doesn't support anyones position, it's simply incomplete. The income numbers are absolutely pathetic anyway and I'm not sure how you think they support your position that amway is anything but a waste of any competent persons time.

You seem awfully defensive about a business where you don't actually currently make any money. You've been involved with this for over a decade and I probably made more money last month than you've made from this scam in your life. Why do you keep defending it so much? It seems like a classic case of stockholm syndome.. lol

 

[icerat]

You do get paid for recruiting in amway. By selling your downline useless crap and brainwashing them.

Even if the latter opinions were true, the claim is garbage. It costs me money to buy a sponsor packet. The majority of people who join do not place any further orders (source: Woodward etal vs Quixtar) and do not purchase any training materials (source: N21 vital signs, WWDB parameters), and even then any profits there are not available to the majority of the Amway network.

Almost all groups immediately start people buying "tools" from day 1.

No they don't. You're misinformed.

You are pimping amway.

Nope.

I'm just relating my personal experience that it's a scam based on my inside knowledge that most people wouldn't have access too. I've already posted my opinion and experience in other threads/posts and see no need to rehash it here.

And I'm relating my personal experience that is substantial different to your personal experience AND I'm providing sources for data that people DO have access too that confirm many of your claims are false.

Incomplete information doesn't support anyones position, it's simply incomplete.

Even incomplete information can prove something wrong. The fact that most IBOs never order a product after joining for example negates your claim there's profiting from recruiting.

The income numbers are absolutely pathetic anyway and I'm not sure how you think they support your position that amway is anything but a waste of any competent persons time.

Show me another way an average person can develop an asset generating cashflow in the range of $150,000/yr, part-time, in less than 10 years, with little capital investment needed.

You seem awfully defensive about a business where you don't actually currently make any money.

It's sad that you think a person's only motivation for defending unfair attacks on an organisation should be money.

You've been involved with this for over a decade and I probably made more money last month than you've made from this scam in your life.

There in lies the rub. You think people should make money just by "being a member" or "involved" and if they don't it's a scam.

I think the opposite - people should have to work hard and persistently to make money, and if they didn't then it's likely a scam.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Even if the latter opinions were true, the claim is garbage. It costs me money to buy a sponsor packet. The majority of people who join do not place any further orders (source: Woodward etal vs Quixtar) and do not purchase any training materials (source: N21 vital signs, WWDB parameters), and even then any profits there are not available to the majority of the Amway network.

And when you buy this "sponsor packet" your upline makes money on your out of pocket cost. Bam, instant profit from recruiting. Note, you aren't high enough in the pyramid to see the benefits I'm talking about. You are hopelessly deluded about this.

No they don't. You're misinformed.

I've never seen a group where they don't push tools including N21. You are told that to be successful that tools are a critical element. You are just flat our lying if you are saying this isn't the case. Since you are a major pedant and twister of words let me be clear when I say that not everyone takes the bait. But they are surely encouraged to buy tools immediately.

Nope.

Again this is being pedantic. You are taking the pro amway stance in this thread which is "pimping amway".

And I'm relating my personal experience that is substantial different to your personal experience AND I'm providing sources for data that people DO have access too that confirm many of your claims are false.

You've done no such thing. In fact you've done nothing but agree with my about the nature of the amway scam. You just don't care that the upline sucks huge money out of the organization through the tools scam. You think that simply telling people that the tools profits exist in some form is enough to make it not a scam. I disagree completely.

Even incomplete information can prove something wrong. The fact that most IBOs never order a product after joining for example negates your claim there's profiting from recruiting.

If someone never buys anything at all they were never successfully recruited in the first place. The goal is to get people into the organization who will 1) buy more tools and 2) find me people to buy tools. The product is the legit side that hides the tools money. I know you disagree here but this couldn't be any clearer to people with a brain.

Show me another way an average person can develop an asset generating cashflow in the range of $150,000/yr, part-time, in less than 10 years, with little capital investment needed.

First off prove that an "average" person can do this. Also the percentage of people that are in amway for 10 years that reach diamond isn't 100%. So your theory here is a bit flawed. Is it POSSIBLE to do this for some people? sure. Just like it's possible for some people to create a chain of restaurants in 10 years or many other businesses in 10 years that make way more than $150k in profit. Hell I know many many people who are wealthy just from working a normal job for that long and getting some stock options! There are billionaires today that were college students 10 years ago! For anyone willing to work and who is smart money can be made in a variety of ways. Painting amway as some kind of special opportunity that "joe average" can do is simple BS.

It's sad that you think a person's only motivation for defending unfair on an organisation should be money.

It's a .... BUSINESS! So what planet are you from?

Anyway my main criticism is that it's a scam who exploits those who can least affords to be exploited (the stupid).

There in lies the rub. You think people should make money just by "being a member" or "involved" and if they don't it's a scam.

Total strawman. I think it's a scam because they brainwash you and squeeze all the money out of you until you have no more money (or brains). Plain and simple it's about extracting money from the downline while they chase their "dreams" when most of them would be far better running in the other direction. Some of them will succeed and join the scamholders. Others will realize it's unethical and bail.

I think the opposite - people should have to work hard and persistently to make money, and if they didn't then it's likely a scam.

I know plenty of people that have worked hard and consistently and had no success in amway, spent plenty of money and are far worse off for it. You keep lying and saying that there is no capital needed but there is... your time! The opportunity cost of amway is huge for someone. I feel sad for all of the people who get sucked into this. The only reason I argue on here is for those people. If I can get one person not to sign up I'll be happy.

 

[Skeptic]

If only making $100 a month is so many MLMers goal, all I can say it, MLM works very well: 99% of MLMers make about that much, or even less.

But why bother with MLM in that case? Why not work a couple of afternoons in McDonald's a month?

 

[NewtonTrino]

If only making $100 a month is so many MLMers goal, all I can say it, MLM works very well: 99% of MLMers make about that much, or even less.

But why bother with MLM in that case? Why not work a couple of afternoons in McDonald's a month?

Because if you worked at McDonalds you wouldn't be putting money into the pyramid and making the scammers rich!

Oh, you mean for non brainwashed people? Yeah, McDonalds is a good way to get some work experience.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Hey Icerat,

How's the ole Amway business going? Get rich yet? Make *any* money yet?

 

[NewtonTrino]

I'm still wondering how it's going? Making headway building your business? It's been a while since we had an update...

 

[Almo]

To be fair, I thought IceRat had given his Amway business to his ex-wife.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I thought he said he was embarking on a new one a while ago.

Either way I'm sure he's making tons of money