MLM

[Epok]

I'm still curious as to what an Amway representative has to say about how Carl "Rusty Nail" Rehnborg claims to have ingested rusty nails as a supplement for iron. Are you ever gonna respond to that? Remember, I did post the link where you can easily find it and it is on the official Nutrilite website.

 

[gtc]

I'm still curious as to what an Amway representative has to say about how Carl "Rusty Nail" Rehnborg claims to have ingested rusty nails as a supplement for iron. Are you ever gonna respond to that? Remember, I did post the link where you can easily find it and it is on the official Nutrilite website.

Its woo, pure and simple.

It reminds me of this guy.

'I swallowed 17 nails in February and didn't die,' he said. 'Five-inch nails, all in one day.'

 

[gtc]

Are there really millions of people in Amway?

 

[Epok]

Are there really millions of people in Amway?

There website claims to have markets in

* Argentina
* Guatemala
* Brazil
* Honduras
* Canada
* Mexico
* Chile
* Panama
* Colombia
* United States
* Costa Rica
* Uruguay
* Dominican Republic
* Venezuela
* El Salvador
* Puerto Rico

Which could very well be true. I can't find any info on exactly how many members they have though. Maybe Rusty Nail Jr. could find us a link though.

I also found something else that is pretty interesting. They have service the is similar to one that Melaleuca uses called Ditto Delivery "which allows consumers to specify an automatic monthly delivery of each product". If it is anything like Melaleuca's service then they probably make it hard to cancel an order. Its also funny how they use the term Independent Business Owner to make it seem like you actually own your own business when really its just a big ol' pot that all these people have their hands in.

I found this site http://www.corporatenarc.com/quixtar.php which is a watchdog group that isn't affiliated with Amway or any other MLM that creates dummy scam links that are actually there to make them look good. That site along with Wikipedia and the actual Amway website can give you a good idea of what is really going on.

 

[icerat]

So "the system" doesn't have a 100% success rate even if you execute as told RIGHT?

I doubt it, but even so completely irrelevant. Following "the system" as recommended is not in any way easy.

Bring them on to talk then.

bring your contacts on to talk.

I'm sure somebody somewhere only wants to make a few extra bucks but that's not how the opportunity is presented in the vast majority if cases. To claim otherwise is just plain lying.

No, it is you who is lying. You have no idea what happens in "the vast majority of cases".

Selling training materials to your DOWNLINE for 10x what they cost to produce is what's absurd and unethical.

We've already discussed this. It's (a) false and misleading to claim they cost 10x production costs. (b) those who make significant money from this do so by selling to *outside* their own downline.

You know this is true, but you've invested so much energy into this myth you promote that there's no way you'll ever admit it.

Especially with the garbage that's on most of this "motivational" material.

Again with the outright dishonesty. You have no idea whats on most of this material. You've never listed to anymore than a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of it, and almost certainly from the same group.

Here's the simple equation. I want certain materials I find of value. I pay less for it from one supplier than another, and am happy with the price I pay.

Oh yeah, I'm being scammed

 

[icerat]

I'm still curious as to what an Amway representative has to say about how Carl "Rusty Nail" Rehnborg claims to have ingested rusty nails as a supplement for iron. Are you ever gonna respond to that? Remember, I did post the link where you can easily find it and it is on the official Nutrilite website.

Sorry, I missed that post. The story is that in the 1920s, along with many other foreigners, Rehnborg was trapped in an internment camp in Shanghai during the revolutionary war.

What he did was boil up whatever he could find, including any leafy green plants and rusty nails to try to get whatever nutrition they could. They ingested the broth, not the nails. Nutrition was not a well understood science at this time, but it appeared to Rehnborg that people who took his broth survived better than those that didn't.

From a purely scientific perspective that seems a quite reasonable observation.

Its woo, pure and simple.

???? Umm, how exactly? Iron is a vital nutrient in the diet. If you boil up rusty iron nails in a broth and ingest it you will get more iron in your diet. It's not particularly bioavailable, but it's better than nothing.

It reminds me of this guy.

Why should it? Not even remotely analagous.

You do know that ingesting iron is necessary for normal life processes don't you? Nothing "woo" about it.

 

[icerat]

Which could very well be true. I can't find any info on exactly how many members they have though. Maybe Rusty Nail Jr. could find us a link though.

I'm not quite sure where this level of skepticism is coming from? Amway is a well studied company. Heck, the Grand Rapid Public Museum just opened an exhibit on Amway.

I also found something else that is pretty interesting. They have service the is similar to one that Melaleuca uses called Ditto Delivery "which allows consumers to specify an automatic monthly delivery of each product". If it is anything like Melaleuca's service then they probably make it hard to cancel an order.

No, you add and delete products or delivery schedules whenever you want on the website. Not difficult at all.

Its also funny how they use the term Independent Business Owner to make it seem like you actually own your own business when really its just a big ol' pot that all these people have their hands in.

The IRS considers you an independent business owner, they have considerably more credibility than you. Still, that's only if you're actually operating it as a business, which most don't, and I'm in entire agreement it's just plain silly to call folk who just maintain membership to shop "independent business owners".

I found this site http://www.corporatenarc.com/quixtar.php which is a watchdog group

A "watchdog group"? Are you serious? It's clearly just a site setup for attracting google ads click traffic.

 

[NewtonTrino]

We've already discussed this. It's (a) false and misleading to claim they cost 10x production costs. (b) those who make significant money from this do so by selling to *outside* their own downline.

You know this is true, but you've invested so much energy into this myth you promote that there's no way you'll ever admit it.

The are selling them for easily 10x the production costs. I know because I saw the price breakdowns (at least for tapes). Actually it wasn't production cost, it's what the company producing them was charging. They could have had additional margin built in there.

Either way it's cheap to produce audio CD's. Anyway there isn't any argument here, you have previously posted the rebate schedule so you've already acknowledged the profits as you do again below.

Again with the outright dishonesty. You have no idea whats on most of this material. You've never listed to anymore than a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of it, and almost certainly from the same group.

Here's the simple equation. I want certain materials I find of value. I pay less for it from one supplier than another, and am happy with the price I pay.

Oh yeah, I'm being scammed

Scientologists think the same thing about crap like dianetics. Just sayin.

 

[icerat]

The are selling them for easily 10x the production costs.

10x manufacturing costs perhaps. That's nothing like the same as production costs. Most things you buy costs significantly more than the manufacturing cost. On what basis do you believe that these companies should be so much more efficient than other companies? In particular, why do you think these companies should be much more efficient than other companies which produce similar materials for the same industry?

Either way it's cheap to produce audio CD's. Anyway there isn't any argument here, you have previously posted the rebate schedule so you've already acknowledged the profits as you do again below.

And you still haven't explained why this distribution network should operate differently to other distribution networks, including the Amway distribution network it supports.

Scientologists think the same thing about crap like dianetics. Just sayin.

Scientists think the same thing about non-crap like physics journals. Just sayin.

It's quite simple really. I find it of value, I buy it. You don't think it's of value, you don't buy it. Ain't capitalism grand?

 

[NewtonTrino]

10x manufacturing costs perhaps. That's nothing like the same as production costs. Most things you buy costs significantly more than the manufacturing cost. On what basis do you believe that these companies should be so much more efficient than other companies? In particular, why do you think these companies should be much more efficient than other companies which produce similar materials for the same industry?

How much of an idiot do you think I am? When you look at the volume they are doing the overhead costs are minimal for this type of operation. Also since I am in the software business I have a fairly good idea of the types of costs they are going to encounter creating these types of media. Also everyone needs to keep in mind that a lot of this stuff is just recordered from the conferences that everyone has already paid to attend (they do some original material as well of course).

And you still haven't explained why this distribution network should operate differently to other distribution networks, including the Amway distribution network it supports.

Again, do you think everyone on this board an idiot? Because they are milking their downline to fatten their pockets. That's why! The tool pyramid is inverted. The guys at the bottom lose money on the tools and the guys at the top make the most per unit. In your case it looks like most of the cash flows into Dornands pocket but I'm sure that the other big pins in his group has special participation deals. You posted a tools volume rebate schedule that only covers a portion of the profit margin.

Scientists think the same thing about non-crap like physics journals. Just sayin.

Exactly. In other words just because some reads material it doesn't make it true. It could in fact be crap and you could simply be mistaken that it's good.

It's quite simple really. I find it of value, I buy it. You don't think it's of value, you don't buy it. Ain't capitalism grand?

Look, I have no problem with it. I don't think that everything that's unethical should be prima facie illegal. I'm just trying to educate people so they can make their own decision. Ultimately I have little sympathy for those who get into this knowing it's history. There are many companies I refuse to do business that are far less damaging than the amway scam.

 

[icerat]

How much of an idiot do you think I am? When you look at the volume they are doing the overhead costs are minimal for this type of operation.

You're the one making idiotic comparisons, not me. Duplicaiton of CDs are just one aspect of a whole operation. You cannot take one aspect of an operation that encompasses websites, multimedia, seminars etc etc in multiple languages and dozens of countries and make judgements based on that. We've been through this before - you ignore office expenses, staffing, translaters, R&D, IT support, legal, accounting, travel etc etc etc etc etc.

Again, base manufacturing expenses is typically a minor part of the final price of ANY product.

I've asked before and you never answer - Why do you think these companies are so fantastically more efficient than other companies?

Also since I am in the software business I have a fairly good idea of the types of costs they are going to encounter creating these types of media.

So you're producing materials for 30+ countries in 20+ languages, having to sort through and edit hundreds of recordings a month, deal with thingsl ike Amway regulations, handle packaging etc etc etc .... you're doing all of these things and you honestly believe they cost nothing?

I don't think you're an idiot, but your providing some pretty solid evidence.

Also everyone needs to keep in mind that a lot of this stuff is just recordered from the conferences that everyone has already paid to attend (they do some original material as well of course).

Yes, conferences that can just as easily lose money.

Again, do you think everyone on this board an idiot? Because they are milking their downline to fatten their pockets. That's why! The tool pyramid is inverted. The guys at the bottom lose money on the tools and the guys at the top make the most per unit.

I provided the rebate scale, you even acknowledged it, now you completely ignore it! The "guys at the bottom" of the "tool pyramid" get the largest rebate, not the smallest. And how do they "lose" money? Any unsold stock goes to the companies bottom line, not theirs.

Or let me guess ... you're referring to the customers of the "tool" companies - the IBOs. Who are buying something they want, for a price cheaper than they can get it elsewhere.

Only in the bizarre world of the anti-amway zealot is buying something you want at a cheaper price than elsewhere called "losing money"

In your case it looks like most of the cash flows into Dornands pocket but I'm sure that the other big pins in his group has special participation deals. You posted a tools volume rebate schedule that only covers a portion of the profit margin.

It covers the profit margins of the marketing network of platinums and above, which is the only area any real potential conflict of interest is an issue. Profit for the company itself is entirely different, and as far as I'm concerned they can operate on the same basis as every other company in the world - to operate at the highest possible margins for the most profit.

In your business, do you everything for free or are you actually trying to make money?

Exactly. In other words just because some reads material it doesn't make it true. It could in fact be crap and you could simply be mistaken that it's good.

I find value in it. I get to decide that, not you.

Look, I have no problem with it. I don't think that everything that's unethical should be prima facie illegal.

You think a company producing materials and services and selling them for a profit is unethical? Why? Isn't that what you do?

I'm just trying to educate people so they can make their own decision.

Yup ... I'm sure they're all enormously shocked to learn that a company selling them stuff is making money doing so

seriously, what planet are you on? KarlMarxland?

 

[NewtonTrino]

You're the one making idiotic comparisons, not me. Duplicaiton of CDs are just one aspect of a whole operation. You cannot take one aspect of an operation that encompasses websites, multimedia, seminars etc etc in multiple languages and dozens of countries and make judgements based on that. We've been through this before - you ignore office expenses, staffing, translaters, R&D, IT support, legal, accounting, travel etc etc etc etc etc.

You simply don't need that many people to do this type of work. The number is people is also proportional roughtly to the volume. Making media products of this type is damn cheap these days.

Again, base manufacturing expenses is typically a minor part of the final price of ANY product.

In media it's typically content creation/production cost and duplication. Office overhead should be minimal in a real operation of this type.

I've asked before and you never answer - Why do you think these companies are so fantastically more efficient than other companies?

Media companies in general are insanely profitable. Especially ones that can produce content by selling people tickets to events.

Yes, conferences that can just as easily lose money.

Every week there are huge numbers of meetings. They wouldn't do that if they lost money. Quit trying to pretend we're morons.

I provided the rebate scale, you even acknowledged it, now you completely ignore it! The "guys at the bottom" of the "tool pyramid" get the largest rebate, not the smallest. And how do they "lose" money? Any unsold stock goes to the companies bottom line, not theirs.

I acknowledged that you had posted an scale which was woefully incomplete in terms of explaining where the money goes. Ludicrously so btw.

Or let me guess ... you're referring to the customers of the "tool" companies - the IBOs. Who are buying something they want, for a price cheaper than they can get it elsewhere.

Let me guess, you think these "tools" are comparable to some sort of real product. They are just church materials at the end of the day.

It covers the profit margins of the marketing network of platinums and above, which is the only area any real potential conflict of interest is an issue. Profit for the company itself is entirely different, and as far as I'm concerned they can operate on the same basis as every other company in the world - to operate at the highest possible margins for the most profit.

I disagree. Whether they are upline or not that company is still milking the pyramid. Having the company be owned by the upline is also an additional conflict of interest. Either way they are basically milking people who don't know any better and are told they are acting in their own best interest.

In your business, do you everything for free or are you actually trying to make money?

All I do is try to pay everyone well and deliver a high quality product for a cheap price. I don't find a bunch of suckers and then milk them until their credit cards are full.

I find value in it. I get to decide that, not you.

I agree. Just keep in mind that you could be wrong though. In fact billions of people on earth find great value in the bible. Doesn't mean their right.

You think a company producing materials and services and selling them for a profit is unethical? Why? Isn't that what you do?

When they are milking a pyramid, yes it's unethical. What a silly argument.

Yup ... I'm sure they're all enormously shocked to learn that a company selling them stuff is making money doing so

seriously, what planet are you on? KarlMarxland?

Actually many of the distributors were shocked when the tool scam first came to light.

Karlmarxland? What does that have to do with anything? Because I think they are scamming people I'm a communist?

 

[icerat]

In media it's typically content creation/production cost and duplication. Office overhead should be minimal in a real operation of this type.

If that's all they were doing, and they're not. You continue to ignore all other issues.

Every week there are huge numbers of meetings. They wouldn't do that if they lost money. Quit trying to pretend we're morons.

Quit acting like a moron. Companies run things at a loss in hope of future profit all the time. Why do you think these companies are any different?

I acknowledged that you had posted an scale which was woefully incomplete in terms of explaining where the money goes. Ludicrously so btw.

That's the rebate scale, call me a liar all you want. I've had it from multiple independent sources.

Let me guess, you think these "tools" are comparable to some sort of real product. They are just church materials at the end of the day.

I don't buy "church materials", so I wouldn't no. I have however bought many similar "real products" from other suppliers.

I disagree. Whether they are upline or not that company is still milking the pyramid.

Oh yeah, shock horror, capitalism at work again. Company sell stuff, company makes money. Terrible, terrible stuff.

Having the company be owned by the upline is also an additional conflict of interest.

How? As I pointed out in Amway Business vs Tools Business: A conflict of interest?, the upline is nomore in a COI here than they are with the Amway business side of things. Furthermore, if they wish to expand their tools business, then the obvious way to do that is to provide materials that successfully expand people's Amway businesses, increasing the market for their tools.

Either way they are basically milking people who don't know any better and are told they are acting in their own best interest.

Oh yes, the Amway IBOs are all idiots and can't possibly make decisions for themselves attack.

All I do is try to pay everyone well and deliver a high quality product for a cheap price. I don't find a bunch of suckers and then milk them until their credit cards are full.

So your customers are all brilliant and discerning individuals, but anyone who buys this stuff is a "sucker". Uhuh

I agree. Just keep in mind that you could be wrong though. In fact billions of people on earth find great value in the bible. Doesn't mean their right.

Sorry, you're wrong there. If they find value in it, then they find value in it. It may not mean they or the bible is right or wrong, but it does mean they didn't get scammed. I'm an atheist, I've bought a bible, I thought it was good value. Was I scammed?

When they are milking a pyramid, yes it's unethical. What a silly argument.

Oh yeah, that selling stuff to people who want it, for cheaper than they get it elsewhere .... so unethical

Actually many of the distributors were shocked when the tool scam first came to light.

The "scam" part is folk making more from tools than Amway and pretending it came from Amway or lying about the existence of profits. I never experienced either thing, and I expected people would be making a profit from providing goods and services.

Karlmarxland? What does that have to do with anything? Because I think they are scamming people I'm a communist?

You're constantly referring to a company that sells products for a profit as "scamming" and similar derogatory terms. Where's the scam in selling products and services to people who want them, at a good price.

 

[fuelair]

No, yes, and yes.

Next thread, please?

Oh, and before you ask, I have been involved in MLMs, including Amway/Nutrilite, Platinum Professional Cookware, Pampered Chef, several telecomm MLMs, and others (including Avon!). Each of them emphasized building profits through downline recruiting (rather than sales volume), and each one required that I (or my wife) purchase a "starter kit" -- the cost of which was to be taken out of our future sales and downline profits.

Been there, done that, and don't try to scam me.

Four of the six meetings I went to had that requirement. Two of the meetings I went to lost people I thought were friends for me (you don't blindside a friend with Amway trash meetings) - the second time I realized what it was as soon as I spotted the portable writing chart going in with a person not know to me - almost left then, but I like to keep up with flim-flammers (and that one was a doozy - opening up middle European networks - which, incidentally, we could easily do at home/from home.)

 

[gtc]

Only in the bizarre world of the anti-amway zealot is buying something you want at a cheaper price than elsewhere called "losing money"

Coca Cola shares are currently $57.48. If someone sells me 100 shares at $50 each that would be 'buying something I want at a cheaper price than elsewhere'. But if I go to sell those shares tomorrow and the share price is only $40 then I will have 'lost money'.

People, if they are even given the choice, buy the tools because they are told it will help them to make money in their Amway business. But, in the vast majority of cases, the money and time spent on these tools seem to far outweigh any benefit that the buyers receive.

You think a company producing materials and services and selling them for a profit is unethical? Why? Isn't that what you do?

When they are milking a pyramid, yes it's unethical. What a silly argument.

Exactly. Almost no one argues that free market transactions are implicitly ethical.

seriously, what planet are you on? KarlMarxland?

Karlmarxland? What does that have to do with anything? Because I think they are scamming people I'm a communist?

Here is an IMF article about the pyramid schemes that rocked Albania. The way icerat is marketing his MLM in this thread reminds me of the way pyramid schemes are marketed. He is misrepresenting the way capitalism works (buying something cheap isn't any guarantee that you will make money) and arguing from some very odd ethical positions.

You can't convince people that you aren't promoting a cult like pyramid scheme if you behave like you are promoting a cult like pyramid scheme.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Furthermore, if they wish to expand their tools business, then the obvious way to do that is to provide materials that successfully expand people's Amway businesses, increasing the market for their tools.

No more time today but I wanted to address this. THIS IS A LIE. All you need to do is create tools which increase the amount of people pretending that they are working a business who regularly buy tools. You don't have to actually build amway volume or have a downline who is making money to be successful selling them "tools" which are nothing more than vapid motivational garbage meant to instill and us vs. them mentality.

Anyway, we get it. You love the "tools" they provide you. You don't feel ripped off at all! Great, but it doesn't mean you aren't getting ripped (along with all of the other suckers).

 

[gtc]

The "scam" part is folk making more from tools than Amway and pretending it came from Amway or lying about the existence of profits. I never experienced either thing, and I expected people would be making a profit from providing goods and services.

As you well know, the scam is bigger than that. People were being forced to buy tools they didn't need or want by their upline. There still seems to be pressure in that regards from at least some uplines. As you also well know, one of the indications that something is a pyramid scam rather than an MLM scheme is a lack of retail sales. Because there are no real retail sales (i.e. sales outside Amway IBOs) the tools business has been the subject of regulator interest.

 

[icerat]

Coca Cola shares are currently $57.48. If someone sells me 100 shares at $50 each that would be 'buying something I want at a cheaper price than elsewhere'. But if I go to sell those shares tomorrow and the share price is only $40 then I will have 'lost money'.

Shares have no inherent value. If I buy a book, then read it, the book has lost value but it doesn't mean I "lost money". I got what I paid for.

People, if they are even given the choice, buy the tools because they are told it will help them to make money in their Amway business. But, in the vast majority of cases, the money and time spent on these tools seem to far outweigh any benefit that the buyers receive.

There is no evidence to support that claim. Heck, even some of the recent Scheibeler published testimonials talk about the value they got out of the material.

He is misrepresenting the way capitalism works (buying something cheap isn't any guarantee that you will make money) and arguing from some very odd ethical positions.

And you are unethically misrepresenting my position. Take a book again. Company A sells if for $A. Company B sells it for $B.

I want the book. $B<$A and you're telling me Company B is acting unethically! How so?

 

[icerat]

As you well know, the scam is bigger than that. People were being forced to buy tools they didn't need or want by their upline.

Really? Forced? How? Were their kids held hostage or something?

I don't even understand in theory how someone is "forced" to buy something.

There still seems to be pressure in that regards from at least some uplines. As you also well know, one of the indications that something is a pyramid scam rather than an MLM scheme is a lack of retail sales. Because there are no real retail sales (i.e. sales outside Amway IBOs) the tools business has been the subject of regulator interest.

(1) Sales to Amway IBOs for legitimate personal use ARE "real" retail sales. The FTC has been clear on this, and there's no ethical reason why they shouldn't be considered that
(2) You're outright wrong to claim there's no sales outside of those to Amway IBOs
(3) I'm not aware of any "regulator interest" in the tools business - care to elaborate? This is news to me.

 

[gtc]

I don't even understand in theory how someone is "forced" to buy something.

Given how much of your life you dedicate to arguing against critics of the tool scam, your words sound hollow.

For those who don't know how it works, here are some links.

http://www.sequence-inc.com/fraudfiles/2008/07/10/the-tools-scam-run-by-quixtar-amway-kingpins/

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/tools.htm

http://www.amquix.info/amway_tapes.html

http://who-got-the-gravy.blogspot.com/2006/07/amway-exposed-part-two-tools-scam.html

Plenty of information there about the '100% optional but 100% necessary' tool scam.

(1) Sales to Amway IBOs for legitimate personal use ARE "real" retail sales. The FTC has been clear on this, and there's no ethical reason why they shouldn't be considered that

Prove it.

(2) You're outright wrong to claim there's no sales outside of those to Amway IBOs

Prove it.

(3) I'm not aware of any "regulator interest" in the tools business - care to elaborate? This is news to me.

If regulator's haven't been interested in examining the tool scam then your first claim has to be bogus.