Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

[aleCcowaN]

I don't know how many labs had Accelerated Mass Spectrometry (AMS) in 1988. Ultimately, the church was the final arbiter on which labs were chosen and where the samples were taken.

After the fact bitterness notwithstanding, this was the best controlled ¹⁴C testing ever done.

I was reading the Damon et al paper and -sorry if I repeat details that are evident or well known for the posters experienced on the subject- they omitted the double-blind part because the shroud had a typical weaving that made it recognizable and the experts didn't want to shred the samples in order to allow proper cleaning before testing. The samples were indeed contaminated by assorted crap but not to an extent as to predominate over the original material.

Then the sound razor tells that the dispersion in dating probably comes from the contamination -other pretty contemporary samples and even older samples were tested and a striking lesser dispersion was obtained -samples from the Nilotic region likely came from undisturbed tombs-. That goes to say that the shroud could be older, let's exaggerate and say a century older because of the contamination.

There's no way the portion of the shroud tested is from the first century. I mean, possible it mighty-might be, but it's more probable that I go to pee and get the second baby Jesus in the process -with all the end of the world and rapture coming- than the shroud is from the first century.

Hence the patching-mending theory. In fact, the contamination bit makes everything suspicious as it is completely unnecessary and it makes look the whole process as random objections arisen just because some zealots can't accept that not to be the shroud of any person during the old ages.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

¡Ai, No! Sueño de ovejas electricas...

Now I know why they have electric shears and electric wool winders!

 

[Slowvehicle]

Now I know why the have electric shears and electric wool winders!

"If we don't find batteries soon, Pris hasn't long to knit..."

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

"If we don't find batteries soon, Pris hasn't long to knit..."

I must admit this one went so far over my head, it left chemtrails.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I must admit this one went so far over my head, it left chemtrails.

Baaad BladeRunner ("Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?") parody.

 

[SezMe]

I wonder if you will rudely ignore this post, as you have so many others of mine.

I can confidently answer that question in the affirmative.

 

[Rincewind]

Baaad BladeRunner ("Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?") parody.

Mmmmm.

Daryl Hannah...

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Baaad BladeRunner ("Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?") parody.

I did see the reference to BR when I googled Pris, so I did catch on eventually, to an extent. Still, nice one. ☻

 

[Slowvehicle]

I can confidently answer that question in the affirmative.

But have you recognized the effects of doing so extend beyond your own egocentric needs?

 

[Slowvehicle]

Mmmmm.

Daryl Hannah...

Inorite?

 

[Craig4]

Hans,
- Something to quickly add...
- This was a really big deal for the labs wanting to be involved -- I can't believe that they would have accepted the restrictions imposed by the church if it hadn't been such a big deal.

That's nice. Now tell me what the archeologist was supposed to add to the carbon dating? Don't tell me you'll look it up. You said it. Take some responsibility or admit this is just a copy and paste job and you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[John Jones]

That's nice. Now tell me what the archeologist was supposed to add to the carbon dating? Don't tell me you'll look it up. You said it. Take some responsibility or admit this is just a copy and paste job and you don't know what you are talking about.

That's basically it. I've enjoyed the discourse these last few days when people who at least researched the topic held the stage.

Carry-on, everyone except old "I'll Be Back".

 

[PizzaTheHutt]

Regarding the vanillin test:

The Vanillin Dating is suspect.
1. The emotionality in the 25 years of special pleading leading up to the test.
2. Significant protocols non-existent, let alone followed.
3. The size and location of the sample.
4. Potential of repair, contamination and “new” vanillin.
5. Scientist (rather than Church) selects sample.
6. Sample selected at an unknown moment, after no “ecumenical” debate at all.
7. All steps in procedure seen by only 1 person, and not videotaped.
8. No test for C14 isotope ratio composition.
9. No archeologist involved.
10. Everyone deliberately excluded.
11. Everyone eventually excluded.
12. A clear age not evident within the sample.

 

[Mojo]

"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"

Yet another question that Jabba will fail to address.

 

[Rincewind]

Regarding the vanillin test:

The Vanillin Dating is suspect.
1. The emotionality in the 25 years of special pleading leading up to the test.
2. Significant protocols non-existent, let alone followed.
3. The size and location of the sample.
4. Potential of repair, contamination and “new” vanillin.
5. Scientist (rather than Church) selects sample.
6. Sample selected at an unknown moment, after no “ecumenical” debate at all.
7. All steps in procedure seen by only 1 person, and not videotaped.
8. No test for C14 isotope ratio composition.
9. No archeologist involved.
10. Everyone deliberately excluded.
11. Everyone eventually excluded.
12. A clear age not evident within the sample.

 

[catsmate]

Hans,
- I have numerous haystacks in which to find my needles, so this will take even longer than usual -- but the following might be a good place to start.
- From http://www.internationalskeptics.co...5&highlight=carbon+dating+doubts#post10512125
- From http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlschneiderpaper.pdf, a 2013 article by
Raymond J. Schneider: The Flawed Carbon Dating Process
The problem with the samples did not originate with the carbon labs however. William Meachum had warned in a submission to Archbishop
Ballestrero: "It is a very serious error indeed to proceed with C14 dating
on the assumption that it is an infallible method." [2] A protocol had been
recommended by the Turin conference held in September 1986. It was advanced as a recommendation and not a binding agreement. None the less the recommendations involved more than three labs, a mix of both counter labs and AMS (Accelerator Mass Spectrometry) labs, and most importantly samples from multiple sites. The decision to limit the dating to three labs, using only the AMS method and restricting the sampling to a single highly
contaminated site were all outcomes determined by a politicized and highly
bureaucratic process of Byzantine proportions. Mix in a lot of backbiting
and intrigue as thoroughly documented by Harry Gove [3] and William Meacham
[4] and you have a recipe for disaster.

Quelle surprise, you're back to repeating the game garbage that we examined previously, back in March was the last time. Complete with your continued inability to get people's names right; it's Meacham. Not exactly reassuring about the quality of the sources you parrot when they can't even get the name correct...

Now, as your your re-hash of the nonsense about AMS and proportional counter dating this is (still) a non-issue; the decision to use AMS was enforced by the controllers of the shroud, as other techniques would require too much fabric being removed.
The contamination issue has been extensively covered; it's a red herring waved around by those unwilling to accept reality. If you want to discuss it further then it's up to you to demonstrate how this magic contamination survived the cleansing processes. You ran away last time.
Likewise the use of only three labs has been covered in detail.
The idea that the sampled area was somehow "different" from the rest of the shroud has also been dealt with, by those far more knowledgeable than Meacham.

What next? A re-hash of your inaccurate and slanderous complaints about the donation to Oxford?

 

[catsmate]

I don't know how many labs had Accelerated Mass Spectrometry (AMS) in 1988. Ultimately, the church was the final arbiter on which labs were chosen and where the samples were taken.

After the fact bitterness notwithstanding, this was the best controlled ¹⁴C testing ever done.

AMS was new in 1988, and uncommon. There were probably less than a dozen labs worldwide (there are about a hundred today). When the testing was originally proposed only Gove's own facility at Rochester was available. As the use of AMS spread more facilities were available and six AMS labs (Zurich, Brookhaven, Oxford, Rochester, Arizona and Harwell) offered their services o the project. These were the six that met with Gove at Trondheim in JUN1986.

 

[catsmate]

Yeah. I just love the assertion that the chosen site (chosen after several days of examination and negotiation) was "highly contaminated" (as if contamination was not routinely dealt with in ¹⁴C dating); an assertion made by the same group that asserts the existence of "some patching" or an "invisible repair", in that same, "highy contaminated" area.

It's the same approach used for the presence (and simultaneous absence) of Iron(III) oxide...

I've asked Jabba several times to describe the contamination that could survive the cleansing processed used. He's completely ignore the question.

 

[Craig4]

That's basically it. I've enjoyed the discourse these last few days when people who at least researched the topic held the stage.

Carry-on, everyone except old "I'll Be Back".

Why thank you.

 

[aleCcowaN]

That's basically it. I've enjoyed the discourse these last few days when people who at least researched the topic held the stage.

Carry-on, everyone except old "I'll Be Back".

It the context of education on scepticism it's interesting to watch what lengths people are willing to go in order to keep their epistemological hedonism untouched. If I had to define what the jabbatic year of this discussion shows is how the defence of a certain notion can make science into a business that is epistemologically indebted with religion and orbiting its periphery, while acknowledging that science is what it is once it comes back to daily businesses. A case of special pleading on steroids, if I may say.