Miracle of the Shroud IV - The Phantom Image

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I can do it off the top of my head because I actually know and use these principles professionally. You don't, so you can't. So stop pretending you can. Everyone has correctly seen it as yet another dodge.



But that's not what you're doing. You're using it to disguise your assumptions and preconceptions, which you have quantified simply as arbitrarily chosen numbers, and from it make a circular argument that tries to convey the illusion of rigor without achieving it. As I said many times, a Bayesian inference is only as good as (and only valid under) the initial inputs. All that can be said according to your model is that if one already believes the shroud is authentic, this new evidence will only reinforce it. Neither you nor Hugh understands this because you don't understand the intent of the science. Even Hugh mistakenly thought you had computed an actual probability of authenticity.

I have explained all this at length, many times. Praising my explanation doesn't excuse your inability to address it.

Neither Bayesian nor classical statics applies. The only thing that supports authenticity is actual evidence. Produce it, and quit screwing around with stuff you don't understand.
Jay,
- Are you saying that if new info is consistent with two different hypotheses, it can't support one hypothesis over the other?
 
Jay,
- Are you saying that if new info is consistent with two different hypotheses, it can't support one hypothesis over the other?

"Consistent with two different hypotheses" pretty much is just a different wording "Supports both hypotheses". As such it cant favour one over the other: What you take away from supporting one, is added to support the other, while at the same time doing the same thing in the other direction.

Example:

You see a garden with wet soil.
New info: The wet stuff is water.
Hypothesis A: It previously rained.
Hypothesis B: Someone watered the garden.

The info "It is water" is consistent with both, supports both hypotheses. There is nothing about it that could possibly favour one over the other.

Why do you continue to pretend in your posts to not understand the simplest of things?

Greetings,

Chris
 
That simple and obvious fact is one that numerous posters, including Hugh, have pointed out to you.


Beware: I sense an attempt at a "gotcha" along the lines of, "but if it was really unlikely under one hypothesis but likely under the other..."
 
Beware: I sense an attempt at a "gotcha" along the lines of, "but if it was really unlikely under one hypothesis but likely under the other..."

Well let's see.

1. The substance around the image's wounds is real blood:

Unlikely if the shroud is authentic as the body would almost certainly have been washed first, plus blood would not actually flow as shown

Very likely if a medieval artist had wanted to give a fake shroud verisimilitude, and hadn't properly thought through what the blood would actually look like

Highly likely if a medieval artist was creating an artwork illustrating Christ's passion for display, without any intention of passing it off as authentic

2. There is limestone on the cloth:

Highly likely in all conceivable scenarios

So even if the argument was valid it would not support authenticity.
 
"Consistent with two different hypotheses" pretty much is just a different wording "Supports both hypotheses". As such it cant favour one over the other: What you take away from supporting one, is added to support the other, while at the same time doing the same thing in the other direction.

Example:

You see a garden with wet soil.
New info: The wet stuff is water.
Hypothesis A: It previously rained.
Hypothesis B: Someone watered the garden.

The info "It is water" is consistent with both, supports both hypotheses. There is nothing about it that could possibly favour one over the other.

Why do you continue to pretend in your posts to not understand the simplest of things?

Greetings,

Chris

Because its convenient.

But beware, Jabba will no doubt claim that because evidence supports both claims, they are equally likely. Because of the alleged blood (though adequate evidence to support the claim that there's blood on the cloth has yet to be provided) and the limestone, it's a 50/50 call that the cloth is authentic, furthermore the copious "undocumented history", which supports authenticity, more than offsets the carbon dating (about which there are apparently many doubts, though again none that stand up to scrutiny) which means that the "preponderance of evidence" supports authenticity.

Or at least that's the way I think it goes :rolleyes:
 
Beware: I sense an attempt at a "gotcha" along the lines of, "but if it was really unlikely under one hypothesis but likely under the other..."

But then it would not be "consistent with" both hypotheses. Obviously, if there is a marked difference between the likelyhood, its different. This, however, does not cover ballpark guesses, like "I think one probability is 95% and the other is 50%".

Hans
 
Neither Bayesian nor classical statics applies.

> 20k posts, no "J's scale tilt", statics definitely applies ;)

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Are you saying that if new info is consistent with two different hypotheses, it can't support one hypothesis over the other?

Yes.

As I've been saying consistently now for a week, Bayesian methods simply reflect the preconceptions you encode into the model. You refuse to discuss your preconceptions, hence it's quite obvious you know what you're trying to do here. You fooled Hugh, but you didn't fool anyone else.

Now quite fooling around with math you don't understand and provide the evidence that's been asked for.
 
Blood/What difference does it make?/Bayesian Statistics

Jay,
- Are you saying that if new info is consistent with two different hypotheses, it can't support one hypothesis over the other?

Yes.

As I've been saying consistently now for a week, Bayesian methods simply reflect the preconceptions you encode into the model. You refuse to discuss your preconceptions, hence it's quite obvious you know what you're trying to do here. You fooled Hugh, but you didn't fool anyone else.

Now quite fooling around with math you don't understand and provide the evidence that's been asked for.
Jay,
- By "consistent with two different hypotheses," I mean that the info does not eliminate either hypothesis. Does law use the concept of "consistent" in the issue of consilience -- and if so, does it use my definition?
 
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