Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Hans]

Volcanoes of Easter Island
Rano Kau is in the world heritage site of Rapa Nui National Park and gives its name to one of the seven sections of the park. The principal archaeological site on Rano Kau is the ruined ceremonial village of Orongo which is located at the point where the sea cliff and inner crater wall converge. As well as basalt, it contains several other igneous rocks including obsidian
http://www.easterislandtourism.com/what-to-visit/volcanos/



I assume King of the Americas missed that the island's fresh water comes from a volcano crater.

Good find. I help to excavate that area (its fairly large) I remember the obsidian but not the basalt! I do remember they use to obtain their hammer stones in that area also.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Good find. I help to excavate that area (its fairly large)

That's amazing. I started off in anthropological prehistory at Sydney Uni and was going to my first overseas dig in Iran and the Iranian revolution decided to come along and ruin my chosen career.........so I ended up in tax law.

 

[Hans]

That's amazing. I started off in anthropological prehistory at Sydney Uni and was going to my first overseas dig in Iran and the Iranian revolution decided to come along and ruin my chosen career.........so I ended up in tax law.

Yeah I was going to do Neolithic Middle East Archaeology (Cypriot) and my advisor dropped dead and my new one insisted I become a Mayanist. I didn't want to be a Mayanist! It was thought in the mid 70's that the local archaeologists in CA were going to force out all the 'foreigners'. Went military with archie as a hobby and doing the shovel bum routine - making ruins instead of excavating them as I use to say.

 

[Roboramma]

Question, did you watch the video, attached to the beginning of this thread?

Yes, have you forgotten our exchange about that?

 

[King of the Americas]

Those are good possibilities too. There isn't much top soil on the island except around the main quarry. Those quarries could be in re-forested areas or have been covered over by modern construction.

I've been to the site twice, once as a tourist a decade or so and the first time as an archaeology student doing survey work there. Survey work the two main quarries and checking on some of the work done by Thor which he talked about in the book Aku Aku.

Most of the origins for the Moai are known so unless basalt rocks were falling form the sky they may have used such isolated rocks. It is thought one group may have controlled the main quarry and 'outliers' may have used what they could find.

[qimg]http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/118516874.jpg[/qimg]

Example of an isolated basalt rock from the north shore area.

W T F Dude??

You've been to and 'studied' EI...??? And you just now say that? Or, did I miss it? That is FUQ awesome!!

I have a list of questions:

Have you seen evidence of re-carving?
Have you tried to carve the stones using the technique they did?
Is all of the stone (Moai) local, or are there any from off-island sources?
Does the soil erosion look natural or man-made?
Can you get permission to photograph off the beaten path locations? (Lat. 27° 6'39.69"S Long. 109°15'27.21"W)
Do you know anyone on-site now?
*If there are divers on the island, can you recommend/request they look for a submerged encasement wall about 1500-1700 meters off shore?

 

[JesseCuster]

*If there are divers on the island, can you recommend/request they look for a submerged encasement wall about 1500-1700 meters off shore?

You think people are going to start an exhaustive search of the ocean 1500 meters off Easter Island because of your idle speculation about underwater quarries linked to a 12,000 year old civilisation on island?

 

[Tolls]

^Does Not Understand Rational Choice Theory^

What the flippin' heck does that have to do with whether you even thought to check your interpretations?

Then again, I see you learned from the likes of Daniken, which sort of explains it.

 

[King of the Americas]

You think people are going to start an exhaustive search of the ocean 1500 meters off Easter Island because of your idle speculation about underwater quarries linked to a 12,000 year old civilisation on island?

[qimg]http://web.archive.org/web/20030508140226/http://www.doomworld.com/linguica/lollerskates.gif[/qimg]

No...but check it out using google earth.

ETA: I think I just stumbled on the largest orchard/tree colony ever planted...12 miles long...maybe 2 or 3 miles wide, mostly dead now, but still very apparent.

Lat. 19°43'11.36"S
Long. 69°53'41.84"W

---

If you zoom out, and look at the sea bottom, very long straight lines appear to intersect island chains, and some head inland. Following them leads to interesting things, sometimes!

*This orchard has two sides and is 12 miles long and 3 miles wide, with plants spaced about every 40 feet...still doing the math on the total number of plants...

ETA II: Estimated number of plants in original orchard- 7.5 million.

ETA III:

ETA IV: Go further south, there's an even bigger plantation...The numbers look like it might have a billion original plants...!

 

[Craig B]

No...but check it out using google earth.

ETA: I think I just stumbled on the largest orchard/tree colony ever planted...12 miles long...maybe 2 or 3 miles wide, mostly dead now, but still very apparent.

Lat. 19°43'11.36"S
Long. 69°53'41.84"W

---

If you zoom out, and look at the sea bottom, very long straight lines appear to intersect island chains, and some head inland. Following them leads to interesting things, sometimes!

They're probably submarine ley lines. If Google Earth can spot apple trees hundreds of metres down, that will revolutionise anti submarine detection.

 

[King of the Americas]

They're probably submarine ley lines. If Google Earth can spot apple trees hundreds of metres down, that will revolutionise anti submarine detection.

This is inland...I followed one of the lines away from EI onto land, into the desert.

 

[Craig B]

This is inland...I followed one of the lines away from EI onto land, into the desert.

Which desert did you follow it to?

 

[King of the Americas]

Which desert did you follow it to?

Get your Google Earth on, and look for yourself.

 

[Tolls]

No...but check it out using google earth.

ETA: I think I just stumbled on the largest orchard/tree colony ever planted...12 miles long...maybe 2 or 3 miles wide, mostly dead now, but still very apparent.

You've leapt across the ocean, from Easter Island to Chile, and picked out some form of plantation, possibly.

By the way...4000 km.

Oh, and a bit of Googling, and this area was used for nitrate extraction, which resulted in a lot of the trees being chopped down for fuel.

There was a reforestation attempt, which meant a load of trees all planted in, guess what, neat little rows.

Link to Google books mentioning Oficina Dolores.

In case you're wondering what Oficina Dolores is, it's a spot about 1km north of your coordinates, a couple of hundred metres West of the Panamericana (that's the big road you can see).

Anyway, to quote the relevant bit of that book link:

South of Zapiga, the Panamericana runs across a flatter plateau at about 1000m above sea level, entering the first part of the Reserva Nacional Pampa del Tamarugal from Km1883 to Km1865(...). The reserve is named after the tamarugo tree which once blanketed this area but was almost entirely cleared for fuel during the nitrates boom. In this arid area the regrowth has been not natural, but as a result of planting and irrigation by Conaf in 1968-72. From Km1881 the site of the oficina Dolores is 2km to the west. This was where the nitrates industry began, in 1810...

Now, will you please accept that you have no clue what you're doing?

 

[John Jones]

Get your Google Earth on, and look for yourself.

Can you think of any reason we should take orders from you?

 

[King of the Americas]

You've leapt across the ocean, from Easter Island to Chile, and picked out some form of plantation, possibly.

By the way...4000 km.

Oh, and a bit of Googling, and this area was used for nitrate extraction, which resulted in a lot of the trees being chopped down for fuel.

There was a reforestation attempt, which meant a load of trees all planted in, guess what, neat little rows.

Link to Google books mentioning Oficina Dolores.

In case you're wondering what Oficina Dolores is, it's a spot about 1km north of your coordinates, a couple of hundred metres West of the Panamericana (that's the big road you can see).

Anyway, to quote the relevant bit of that book link:


Now, will you please accept that you have no clue what you're doing?

I am not convinced we are talking about the same place...

The first place I found is rife with surrounding ruins, and contain less than 10 million plants.

The second place further south has hundreds of millions, at least.

So...a well meaning business replanted trees, out in a desert, where less than half survive to today to replace the deforestation that they did in a dessert? That's complete nonsense!

You need to look at where the area these orchards or groves appear. The image I linked is 12 miles long...

Outside of the larger plantation are smaller individual stands: *This one is 275 yards by 225.

 

[King of the Americas]

Can you think of any reason we should take orders from you?

Only "reason."

 

[Hans]

W T F Dude??

You've been to and 'studied' EI...??? And you just now say that? Or, did I miss it? That is FUQ awesome!!

I normally don't chit chat with people using trolling techniques

I have a list of questions:

Have you seen evidence of re-carving?
Have you tried to carve the stones using the technique they did?

Yes we recreated Thor Heyderdahl's experiment with using pounders. It's hell on one's shoulders, elbows and wrists but it does work. Just as noted by Thor and many others. Actually easier than working granite with diorite pounders which I had also done in Egypt.

I recommend you read Aku Aku by Heyerdahl.

Is all of the stone (Moai) local, or are there any from off-island sources?

Local (?) where the heck would it come from? The Polynesians were excellent mariners but carrying multi-ton rocks to an island made of rock was not one of their feats we have evidence of.....

Does the soil erosion look natural or man-made?

Natural but it was caused by man removing the trees starting around 1000 AD or so sedimentation tells us. The soil on EI is very thin you get erosion burials only along the sides of the volcanoes where the the soil has 'sagged' significantly.

Can you get permission to photograph off the beaten path locations? (Lat. 27° 6'39.69"S Long. 109°15'27.21"W)

You have your longitude and Latitude backwards. I've walked over that place several times why are you interested in it?

Do you know anyone on-site now?

You mean a professional or a local, Yes & no, Terry Hunt one of the leading archaeologists on EI and I were classmates. I follow his work closely.

If there are divers on the island, can you recommend/request they look for a submerged encasement wall about 1500-1700 meters off shore?

Get one of multi-millionaire fringe writers to pay for an expedition with robotic equipment. There are two nearby seamounts one called Pulao (?) and another whose name escapes me (moai?) but I believe they are several hundred meters below the survive.

 

[Hans]

Can you think of any reason we should take orders from you?

I can't. Oh and I see he came back - the 'fake leaving' is another standard trolling technique.

 

[Hans]

Now, will you please accept that you have no clue what you're doing?

Is he actually being a nut or pretending to be a nut....lol

 

[JesseCuster]

What the **** does this dead tree plantation in South America have to do with underwater quarries off Easter Island?