Michael Schumacher in critical condition

Very true. But not really applicable to our situation. And any and all acceleration in any given direction HAS to be as the result of an applied force (F=ma, or a=F/m). The only external force acting on Schumacher post-impact was gravity, acting in a purely vertically-downward direction.

You are oversimplifying things and only considering the body as a whole. You forget that factors internal to the body can, and do, affect the motion of the individual components of that body.

Take my example of the figure skater doing a spin. When the arms are extended the rotation velocity of the skater as a whole is low. Pull in the arms, rotational velocity goes up in order to conserve the total momentum of the system. No external forces are acting upon the skater and yet the rotational speed increases.

Unfortunately, this is nonsensical from a scientific point of view.

No it's not nonsensical and your next statement correctly indicates why:

It IS correct, however, to say that issues such as angular momentum (e.g. tumbling) or elasticity effects may cause certain parts of a body falling under gravity to travel temporarily at a higher speed than that of the centre of gravity

Which is exactly the point we're trying to make. The instantaneous velocity of an individual component of a rotating object - such as the head of a tumbling skier - can be moving much faster than the object as a whole.

We don't have video of the fall. We don't know how he fell. The speed he was travelling before the impact is only one factor in a very complex equation that determines how fast his head was moving when it hit the rock. It's actually entirely possible that the head was moving slower than the rest of his body relative to the rock at the moment of impact. It's also entirely possible that it was moving much faster.

All we can definitively say is that the initial speed down the slope does not give us anywhere near enough information to figure out how much force his head took at impact.

Cheers,
Luke.
 
Unfortunately, this is nonsensical from a scientific point of view. A body cannot accelerate downwards faster than g (acceleration due to gravity) without some other external force being applied with a vector component in the same downward direction.

Yeah, not so much:

HOW IT HAPPENS

The weight on the �arm� causes the center of mass of the arm to be shifted toward the lower end of the �arm� . Thus, when the supporting rod is removed, the center of mass of the arm accelerates toward the earth at the normal rate. This causes the part of the arm where the bucket is placed to fall faster than the normal acceleration of gravity and it also falls in an arc, allowing it to get out and under the bowling ball so it catches the bowling ball.

There is a very famous picture of a smokestack being demolished. This smokestack is toppled to the right, and the smokestack is broken in two before it hits the ground. It looks like the following: (picture not copied)

This is a result of the center of mass falling quicker than the upper end of the smokestack. This entire demonstration does not violate the law of gravity, it just seems like it does!

http://www.physics.umn.edu/outreach/pforce/circus/projectile.html
 
Bild has some useful information (did I write that?). There had been 20 centimeters of fresh snow the night before and the stones were mostly if not totally covered (says the police). They provide this illustration of the scene which shows that the place of accident is between two pistes, a difficult one to the left and an easy one to the right. Seems (to me) like they planned to take the easy one and likely his people did, while Schumi helped someone who had fallen (like the manager said) at the entrance to the difficult one. Then he started again and wanted back to the easy piste as fast as possible to catch up with his people, not realizing the dangers waiting under the surface in the (marked as off-piste) area in-between.
 
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Nooooooooo

Seriously, you don't understand the physics. I don't really want to get into an extended discussion on this, but you're confusing objects in freefall with objects rotating around a fulcrum.

In the latter scenario - illustrated in that bowling ball and bucket example that you gave - the bucket only accelerates downwards faster than g because of the fact that there IS another external force acting on it: that force is transmitted to the bucket via the rigid arm, and as a result of a) the fulcrum created at one end of the arm which is affixed to the Earth, and b) the fact that the arm's centre of gravity is closer along the arm to the fulcrum than the bucket.

This example has precisely nothing to do with an example of an object (in our case a human body) moving through air with no means of application of any linear forces other than gravity and air resistance.

Incidentally, in that smokestack example, it doesn't mean what you think it does. The centre of gravity of the stack (probably at around 1/3 of the height of the stack) accelerates downwards at an acceleration of g, but the top accelerates SLOWER than g. However, it is possible that if the stack did not break, the same pivot effect as in the bowling ball example would cause the top of the stack to accelerate faster than g - but again this is a specific instance of the fulcrum effect and conservation of angular momentum, which entirely relies on a) a fulcrum fixed to the Earth, b) a rigid "arm", c) rotation around the fulcrum, and d) measurement of acceleration at a point on the "arm" further away from the fulcrum than the CoG.
 
You are oversimplifying things and only considering the body as a whole. You forget that factors internal to the body can, and do, affect the motion of the individual components of that body.

Take my example of the figure skater doing a spin. When the arms are extended the rotation velocity of the skater as a whole is low. Pull in the arms, rotational velocity goes up in order to conserve the total momentum of the system. No external forces are acting upon the skater and yet the rotational speed increases.



No it's not nonsensical and your next statement correctly indicates why:



Which is exactly the point we're trying to make. The instantaneous velocity of an individual component of a rotating object - such as the head of a tumbling skier - can be moving much faster than the object as a whole.

We don't have video of the fall. We don't know how he fell. The speed he was travelling before the impact is only one factor in a very complex equation that determines how fast his head was moving when it hit the rock. It's actually entirely possible that the head was moving slower than the rest of his body relative to the rock at the moment of impact. It's also entirely possible that it was moving much faster.

All we can definitively say is that the initial speed down the slope does not give us anywhere near enough information to figure out how much force his head took at impact.

Cheers,
Luke.

Another way to look at this to illustrate the effect is to think of a stick falling. If you drop it parallel to the ground, it falls due to gravity and the entire stick hits the ground at the same time. If you drop it at an angle, so one end hits first, it falls due to gravity until one end hits the ground and then that upward force from the impact is transferred into downward force on the other side of the centre of gravity. That is why when you drop a stick like this it often happens that first one end hits and then the other end hits before the CG gets to the ground. If it were only gravity acting on the stick then the CG would hit before the second end.

On a skier, with forward momentum whose feet suddenly stop, that stopping force is transferred into a arcing downward force on the top of the body, above the CG and the head will often be the next point of contact because it is moving much faster than the CG.
 
You are oversimplifying things and only considering the body as a whole. You forget that factors internal to the body can, and do, affect the motion of the individual components of that body.

Take my example of the figure skater doing a spin. When the arms are extended the rotation velocity of the skater as a whole is low. Pull in the arms, rotational velocity goes up in order to conserve the total momentum of the system. No external forces are acting upon the skater and yet the rotational speed increases.



No it's not nonsensical and your next statement correctly indicates why:



Which is exactly the point we're trying to make. The instantaneous velocity of an individual component of a rotating object - such as the head of a tumbling skier - can be moving much faster than the object as a whole.

We don't have video of the fall. We don't know how he fell. The speed he was travelling before the impact is only one factor in a very complex equation that determines how fast his head was moving when it hit the rock. It's actually entirely possible that the head was moving slower than the rest of his body relative to the rock at the moment of impact. It's also entirely possible that it was moving much faster.

All we can definitively say is that the initial speed down the slope does not give us anywhere near enough information to figure out how much force his head took at impact.

Cheers,
Luke.


*sigh*

If a skier is travelling fast enough for a fall to result in either a) end-over-end catapulting into the air, or b) tumbling at a significant rate of angular momentum........ then the skier must, by definition, have been travelling fast (probably over 25-30mph) in the first place.

Otherwise an accident would a) not throw the skier airborne in any significant manner, or b) not cause the skier to do any more than fall to the slope and perhaps roll and skid for a short while before coming to a rest.

Look: I totally agree that a tumbling skier can have a temporary head velocity that is significantly higher than his CoG velocity (and, as you say, posibly also slower). BUT: if a skier is tumbling that violently, then it means that the CoG velocity is/was high anyhow. QED.

So here's the thing. Let's for one moment assume that the helmet damage indicates that it hit the rock at 50mph (and that might not even be correct, but for the moment let's assume it is). A head impact of 50mph either implies that the whole body was moving towards the rock at around that velocity, or that the body was tumbling/somersaulting such that the head was moving at 50mph while the CoG was perhaps moving at a slower velocity.

But if it's the latter, then one has to explain how the body came to be tumbling or somersaulting such that there was significant angular momentum generated. And that would require the body to have been moving at a significant velocity prior to the first impact anyhow.

So, as I see it, the probability - either way one chooses to look at it - is that Schumacher was travelling at significant downhill speed at the time of the accident. Again, that's not a criticism or a denouncement. Schumacher was free to ski in whichever manner he liked, just as some people choose to ride motorbikes fast on quite country roads (and some of them lose control, hit trees and die or end up paralysed....).

I also note with interest that the apparent leak from the investigation explicitly referred to the likely downhill speed at the moment of the accident. It did not refer to the likely speed at which the helmet hit the rock. I would reiterate that I tend to believe that people who investigate these sorts of accidents are pretty experienced in divining skiing speed from impact damage and injuries. I tend to think that they understand probably better than anyone else how to account for factors such as somersaulting or tumbling (and that they understand that those factors are in themselves indicative of high speeds). And since speed at the moment of accident is often significant from an investigative standpoint (e.g. was the behaviour reckless or inappropriate for the conditions), I would tend to think that they are generally quite good at making estimates of pre-impact ski speed.
 
Another way to look at this to illustrate the effect is to think of a stick falling. If you drop it parallel to the ground, it falls due to gravity and the entire stick hits the ground at the same time. If you drop it at an angle, so one end hits first, it falls due to gravity until one end hits the ground and then that upward force from the impact is transferred into downward force on the other side of the centre of gravity. That is why when you drop a stick like this it often happens that first one end hits and then the other end hits before the CG gets to the ground. If it were only gravity acting on the stick then the CG would hit before the second end.

On a skier, with forward momentum whose feet suddenly stop, that stopping force is transferred into a arcing downward force on the top of the body, above the CG and the head will often be the next point of contact because it is moving much faster than the CG.


You're delving now into hypotheticals that have no relation to the apparent nature of this accident.

Where does all this "feet suddenly stop" thing come from?. Yes, of course - in this purely hypothetical example that appears to have been made merely to prove a theoretical point - if a skier coming down a slope suddenly got pinned firm to the ground by the ankles (the mechanism for which completely escapes me!), then indeed an angular momentum vector would be established which would result in the head impacting the ground at a speed significantly greater than the pre-incident downhill speed.

But THAT'S NOT WHAT APPEARS TO HAVE HAPPENED IN THIS INSTANCE. All of my arguments are wholly predicated on the apparent mechanism of Schumacher's accident, as reported by eyewitnesses and the medical teams who aided him on the mountain. It seems apparent that Schumacher first hit a rock, which propelled him into the air for several metres, and that he hit a second rock with his head at his point of return to the ground.

IF that general mechanism of the accident is accurate, then we (you) need to stop thinking about fulcrums, rigid arms and angular momentum. Because that's not what happened. Equally, we (you) need to start thinking in terms of either a) somersaulting through the air (which pretty automatically implies a high speed of initial impact anyhow) or a straight head-first flight through the air (which in my opinion is by some considerable distance the most likely scenario).
 
But THAT'S NOT WHAT APPEARS TO HAVE HAPPENED IN THIS INSTANCE. All of my arguments are wholly predicated on the apparent mechanism of Schumacher's accident, as reported by eyewitnesses and the medical teams who aided him on the mountain. It seems apparent that Schumacher first hit a rock, which propelled him into the air for several metres, and that he hit a second rock with his head at his point of return to the ground.

So the rock was an expert in judo/jiu jitsu? How does a rock "propel" something? :confused:

On the other hand, it could easily be the mechanism you are having trouble identifying for the forces I describe.

Now strictly speaking, a fall is only due to gravity, so the forces I describe are not "falling" per se, but they sure do make a fall a whole lot nastier.
 
Bild has some useful information (did I write that?). There had been 20 centimeters of fresh snow the night before and the stones were mostly if not totally covered (says the police). They provide this illustration of the scene which shows that the place of accident is between two pistes, a difficult one to the left and an easy one to the right. Seems (to me) like they planned to take the easy one and likely his people did, while Schumi helped someone who had fallen (like the manager said) at the entrance to the difficult one. Then he started again and wanted back to the easy piste as fast as possible to catch up with his people, not realizing the dangers waiting under the surface in the (marked as off-piste) area in-between.


Bild still has reasonable brand value as an investigative journal!

Interesting info, if correct. But there's a reason why pistes are clearly marked, and off-piste areas are skied entirely at the skiers' risk. In my opinion, if one is skiing off-piste - even if it's just a small area between two prepared slopes - then one should be skiing very slowly and carefully since any number of things might lie just below the surface powder. That appears to be particularly true in this instance, since photos taken in the immediate aftermath of the accident appear to show a large number of highly-visible boulders that still stuck up above the snow level. It should therefore have been blindingly obvious to anyone that there was at least a significant possibility that further rocks lay hidden just below the powder surface.

The father of one of my friends lost his business partner to a car accident, in which the man was driving round a bend in a country road at night in the rain, encountered a deer in the road, swerved and lost control, and hit a tree head on. The man was doing around 55mph as he rounded the corner, and around 45-50mph when he hit the tree. It's all too easy to put this down as "one of those things" or a "freak accident". But it wasn't. He was driving too fast for the conditions, and for the fact that he couldn't see far enough ahead of him as he went round the bend to give himself sufficient reaction time if he did encounter an obstacle. His choice - and his risk. Sadly, the odds went against him. Had he decided not to gamble, he would have taken that bend at 30-40mph maximum.
 
So the rock was an expert in judo/jiu jitsu? How does a rock "propel" something? :confused:

On the other hand, it could easily be the mechanism you are having trouble identifying for the forces I describe.

Now strictly speaking, a fall is only due to gravity, so the forces I describe are not "falling" per se, but they sure do make a fall a whole lot nastier.


Hmmmmmmmm

OK. Substitute in "....the impact of which exerted forces upon his body which resulted in propelling him....."

Is that better? I had thought the shorthand might suffice. I was wrong.

And a fall is not always only due to gravity. Someone running for a bus who trips and falls still has significant forward velocity that might make all the difference if that person (say) hit a bollard head on in the fall. Some falls have significant horizontal momentum components. They pretty much all involve a vertical downward component as well, which is usually the result of acceleration due to gravity, but they don't by any means have to be exclusively gravity-induced.
 
That appears to be particularly true in this instance, since photos taken in the immediate aftermath of the accident appear to show a large number of highly-visible boulders that still stuck up above the snow level. It should therefore have been blindingly obvious to anyone that there was at least a significant possibility that further rocks lay hidden just below the powder surface.


No. Here is a picture of the immediate aftermath, notice the difference to the inlay (which is the same as the one with the illustration). The rocks are mostly if not totally invisible, as the police says. But it is marked as off-piste, that's correct.

I must say I find it a bit distasteful how you try with thousands of words based on alleged leaks and other incomplete information to - what, prove that it was his fault? To not have to show empathy? We're talking about an adrenaline junkie here, for sure, while one with a very analytical mind on vacation with his family, but first of all this is a tragic accident.
 
No. Here is a picture of the immediate aftermath, notice the difference to the inlay (which is the same as the one with the illustration). The rocks are mostly if not totally invisible, as the police says. But it is marked as off-piste, that's correct.

I must say I find it a bit distasteful how you try with thousands of words based on alleged leaks and other incomplete information to - what, prove that it was his fault? To not have to show empathy? We're talking about an adrenaline junkie here, for sure, while one with a very analytical mind on vacation with his family, but first of all this is a tragic accident.


No, that's not what I'm doing at all (and I actually find it a little offensive that you accuse me of "trying to not have to show empathy). In fact, I have repeatedly stated - explicitly - that I'm not "blaming" him or criticising him in any way. I had thought that was, ummm, rather clear. I am merely trying to extrapolate the nature of the accident from the evidence available.

I made an initial post suggesting that the current evidence tended to suggest that Schumacher might have been travelling pretty fast at the time of the accident. Others then started up with ever more convoluted (and incorrect, given the apparent circumstances of the accident) ways to try to show how a 50mph helmet impact might be compatible with a low downhill speed at time of impact. I have merely been rebutting these increasingly obtuse and theoretical posts, by showing how they couldn't have applied in this case.

I repeat once more for total clarity: I make no judgement whatsoever on the way Schumacher elected to ski*. What I AM saying (and what I have been saying since minute one) is that it appears that he took on a higher risk - presumably in return for a higher adrenaline rush etc. And that's fine. He took a high risk by racing F1 cars for a living. That's also fine. But risks are called risks for a reason: they imply a relatively higher probability of a negative outcome (in this case, broken bones, serious injury, or even death). It was his choice. It appears that he took on the additional risk, and unfortunately he suffered the consequences associated with that increased risk.

I hope very much that he recovers fully.


* Although I would still say that if (IF) he was leading his 14-year-old son to ski in the same manner, that might change my view considerably.....
 
That is seriously up there on my "how to be scummy" scale.


Was it someone from the UK tabloid press (or someone freelancing on their behalf)? It sounds depressingly in keeping with their typical tactics.....
 
Was it someone from the UK tabloid press (or someone freelancing on their behalf)? It sounds depressingly in keeping with their typical tactics.....

Not sure. But history shows the French papparrazi aren't exactly respectful in their coverage of people.
 

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