Michael Schumacher in critical condition

LondonJohn said:
They're now saying that his helmet was cracked open, and they estimate that he was doing something around 50mph at the time of the accident (which is extremely fast for recreational skiing). There's also been photos and video in the media of the apparent area in which he was skiing. It's absolutely littered with rocks and outcrops.

It goes without saying that I wish him well, and wish for a full recovery (as I would for anyone - famous or not - who received such injuries). But I also have the opinion that an experienced and highly competent skier (as he was), who elected to ski at such apparent speed through such dangerous terrain, is electing to take a significant risk with his wellbeing (and his life). If he didn't want to put his life and health in anywhere near as much potential danger, he should have been skiing slower, or skiing fast on prepared slopes. It was his decision to make.
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Skiiing is just a dangerous sport even if you take all reasonable precautions. While I was waiting to have my ankle x-rayed after a tumble (my fault, going far too fast down a mogul field on a pair of ski boards - minor leg break), a woman was brought in with a suspected broken neck. She was skiing on piste with due care and attention and an idiot on a snowboard crashed into her.

As it turned out, it was "only" a pair of broken collar bones and a few broken ribs.
 
LondonJohn said:
They're now saying that his helmet was cracked open, and they estimate that he was doing something around 50mph at the time of the accident (which is extremely fast for recreational skiing).
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I thought they said he was an expert skier?

Yeah, they did:

An expert skier, Schumacher fell in a section of trails that slice down through a vast and, in parts, very steep snowfield. Although challenging, the snowfield is not extreme skiing.
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Last update I've heard was that he's improved some, but still not good.

I hope for the best.

It will be an interesting case with relation to the skiing, I think. As I understand it, he was skiing off the trail. Here in the ski country of Vermont this is a perennial problem, especially with experienced skiers who think they know better. There have been so many lost in the woods and needing rescue that new rules make them liable for the cost of search and rescue efforts.
 
qayak said:
I thought they said he was an expert skier?

Yeah, they did:
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I don't understand your point, I'm afraid.

Are you confusing "recreational" with "not very good"? Or are you under the impression that Schumacher was skiing in a race or other form of competition at the time of the accident? Because otherwise, regardless of his ability (to which, incidentally, I explicitly referred), he was skiing recreationally.

And I continue to contend - with good reason - that skiing for recreation at around 50mph through what looks like a pretty dangerous rock field is reckless and risk-taking behaviour. I am not making a judgement on that, mind you. I am simply stating that it was his decision to put himself at a higher risk, and unfortunately it backfired on him this time.
 
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The Don said:
Skiiing is just a dangerous sport even if you take all reasonable precautions. While I was waiting to have my ankle x-rayed after a tumble (my fault, going far too fast down a mogul field on a pair of ski boards - minor leg break), a woman was brought in with a suspected broken neck. She was skiing on piste with due care and attention and an idiot on a snowboard crashed into her.

As it turned out, it was "only" a pair of broken collar bones and a few broken ribs.
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While this is of course quite true (and, for example, IIRC Natasha Richardson died in an accident that happened on a nursery slop while she was wearing a helmet), there are undeniably different risk profiles for different types of skiing. Schumacher appears to have elected for a relatively high-risk type of skiing, meaning that his chances of being seriously injured were (by his own choice) greatly increased.

As an analogy, if I need to cross a busy road to get to a shop, I can choose:

1) a relatively safe method: a signed crossing, controlled by traffic lights, waiting for the lights to stop the traffic in both directions; or

2) a relatively unsafe method: running between the cars nowhere near a signed crossing, when I think I see a suitable gap in the traffic flow.

I might get seriously injured or killed using the first method (and many pedestrians do indeed get hit and killed while crossing properly at light-controlled crossings). But I think everyone might agree that I am far more likely to get seriously injured or killed if I use the second method (on the other hand, I might spend my whole life using only the second method without ever getting injured).

Schumacher appears to have chosen the equivalent of the second method. Note that I'm not criticising him in any way for that decision - I'm simply stating that he chose a riskier form of skiing (presumably because of the higher adrenaline buzz and/or the greater challenge, and maybe also because of the greater inherent risk). He therefore elected to engage in a form of skiing that put him at a significantly higher risk of injury or death. It was his decision entirely to have done so (although I do also wonder whether questions might be asked as to whether he was leading his 14-year-old son into potential danger....).
 
Orphia Nay said:
Article by David Coulthard on Schumacher in The Telegraph today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...-nice-things-people-are-saying-about-him.html

Well worth reading, IMHO.
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With all due respect to Coulthard, I doubt there's any place in the world where Schumacher isn't seen as a true sporting great and Coulthard as his equal while competing - but UK papers. This article says more about their pettiness than anything else. Must have been hard for Coulthard to be jazzed up by them while knowing what's up. Nice from him to admit it in this situation.

Sad event. :(
 
LondonJohn said:
(presumably because of the higher adrenaline buzz and/or the greater challenge, and maybe also because of the greater inherent risk).
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This is a guy who used to go up Eau Rouge flat out in an F1 car.

I'm not sure there's anything that could have provided him an adrenaline rush after that experience.

I suspect his adrenal glands just shut down and gave up years ago after realizing it was a futile effort to even get the guy breathing hard again. Not surprising at all that he didn't hang on the bunny slopes.

Cheers,
Luke.
 
qayak said:
I thought they said he was an expert skier?

Yeah, they did:
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One can be an expert recreational skier, the words are not exclusive of one another. "Expert" indicates skill level while "recreational" indicates the type of skiing; ie competitive or recreational.

Many assume that only competitive skiing is dangerous while the poster you are responding to was pointing out what most experienced skiers already know: recreational skiing is also dangerous.

I hope this helps you to follow this tragedy.
 
Dr. Keith said:
One can be an expert recreational skier, the words are not exclusive of one another. "Expert" indicates skill level while "recreational" indicates the type of skiing; ie competitive or recreational.

Many assume that only competitive skiing is dangerous while the poster you are responding to was pointing out what most experienced skiers already know: recreational skiing is also dangerous.

I hope this helps you to follow this tragedy.
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I think you are the one failing to following the line of thought. The claim was that he was going very fast for a "recreational" skier. My point was that he was an "expert" skier so it wasn't particularly fast at all.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Sabine Kehm, Michael Schumacher's manager, says she's spoken with several people who were present at the accident, and he was not skiing at high speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov-87e20mt4

(1 minute 27 seconds of video)

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What speed people think they remember, and what speed is suggested by the post-impact condition of the helmet and the extent of the brain insult, might be quite some distance apart.........
 
qayak said:
I think you are the one failing to following the line of thought. The claim was that he was going very fast for a "recreational" skier. My point was that he was an "expert" skier so it wasn't particularly fast at all.
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Um, yes it was. It was very fast indeed (if he was actually doing 50mph....), regardless of his expertise, for someone skiing recreationally down a boulder-littered slope. In fact, it was far too fast, given the terrain and the situation.

Professional downhill World Cup men's races see the racers attaining speeds of up to around 80mph. And that's on carefully-manicured slopes which are as smooth as the organisers can make them, with netting crash protection. And it's in competition, with careful regulation and organisation.

If Schumacher was indeed doing something around 50mph, through that area that is apparently littered with large boulders and outcrops, then he was skiing EXTREMELY fast for the terrain and the situation.

In fact, it would be very rare indeed to see anyone skiing at 50mph other than on certain parts of black runs (and, remember, black runs are carefully constructed so as to provide ample run-off areas and complete protection against any firm obstacles at the edges of the run, such as trees or rocks). To ski through a rock field at 50mph would, I am completely certain, be regarded by anyone who knows anything about ski safety as reckless and very high-risk.
 
qayak said:
I think you are the one failing to following the line of thought. The claim was that he was going very fast for a "recreational" skier. My point was that he was an "expert" skier so it wasn't particularly fast at all.
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50mph is fast for recreational ski-ing, whether or not you're an expert.

But now it sounds like he wasn't going very fast at all so the whole argument is moot.
 
Like I said, Fritz Wunderlich tripped and fell on a stone staircase. Stuff happens.

Rolfe.
 
Matthew Best said:
50mph is fast for recreational ski-ing, whether or not you're an expert.

But now it sounds like he wasn't going very fast at all so the whole argument is moot.
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My current point of view is that the neurosurgeons and trauma teams at the hospital in Grenoble - which is the regional go-to hospital for serious alpine accidents - might well have plenty of experience correlating speed at impact with extent of brain trauma and damage caused to helmets (just as experienced RTC trauma personnel can look at a damaged motorbike helmet and estimate with some accuracy the speed of head impact of the rider).

I therefore currently tend to prefer the speed estimate coming out of the hospital to that coming out of eyewitnesses (even before allowing for any possibility that Schumacher's manager might just have a vested interest in "persuading" eyewitnesses to "remember" that Schumacher was skiing far slower than 50mph). What I also know is that it takes a significant amount of impact speed to crack a decent skiing helmet (and my working assumption is that Schumacher would have been wearing a decent helmet).
 
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