Michael Moore newsletter 12/20

[KelvinG]

I think it's very interesting to hear a point of view from disgruntled soldiers. Is it a majority point of view? Probably not. But, it's still enlightening to hear there is some disdain and frustration among some soldiers.

Of course, it's amusing that Moore will get lambasted for his "propoganda" by printing these letters, when in reality, this is likely the only way we can actually find out that such viewpoints exist. You don't see many stories on the mainstream media about "Angry soldiers in Iraq." The American government certainly won't be providing us with a balanced picture of the average soldier's opinion. Should we accuse the governement of being spin doctors and propogandists because they only emphasize the positive and ignore the negative? Oh, I forgot, that's just good politics.

Even if the letters Moore prints represent a minority point of view (which they likely do) I'm still interested in reading them. It's quite eye opening to hear voices of dissent.

 

[Jocko]

In other words, you DO want to see my medals?!?

You mean your merit badges from the Cub Scouts? I don't believe a word you say about your military "experience."

No, I'd much rather see where a "good soldier" like yourself gets off on re-interpreting the Geneva Conventions to suit his politics.

Now that's a more frightening thought than any conspiracy theory you could espouse. Thank heaven the soldiers involved in Saddam's capture had better heads on their shoulders.

 

[Zero]

You mean your merit badges from the Cub Scouts? I don't believe a word you say about your military "experience."

No, I'd much rather see where a "good soldier" like yourself gets off on re-interpreting the Geneva Conventions to suit his politics.

Now that's a more frightening thought than any conspiracy theory you could espouse. Thank heaven the soldiers involved in Saddam's capture had better heads on their shoulders.

Marines don't like t be called soldiers, you goof!! Anyhoo, my medals aren't much, just a National Defence(the crackerjack), a Good Conduct(the good cookie) and the Navy Achievement Medal, which is the most ungodly color...I mean really, green and orange?

BTW, you don't know anything about the soldiers who captured Saddam.

 

[Zero]

I think it's very interesting to hear a point of view from disgruntled soldiers. Is it a majority point of view? Probably not. But, it's still enlightening to hear there is some disdain and frustration among some soldiers.

Of course, it's amusing that Moore will get lambasted for his "propoganda" by printing these letters, when in reality, this is likely the only way we can actually find out that such viewpoints exist. You don't see many stories on the mainstream media about "Angry soldiers in Iraq." The American government certainly won't be providing us with a balanced picture of the average soldier's opinion. Should we accuse the governement of being spin doctors and propogandists because they only emphasize the positive and ignore the negative? Oh, I forgot, that's just good politics.

Even if the letters Moore prints represent a minority point of view (which they likely do) I'm still interested in reading them. It's quite eye opening to hear voices of dissent.

*nods* It is absolutely a good thing to hear multiple viewpoints. An especially interesting thing to hear about is how troops don't have enough of the proper gear, which regardless of your political viewpoint is a completely unsatisfactory situation.

 

[tamiO]

bump

 

[Luke T.]

As the Army closed out fiscal 2003 at the end of September, so many soldiers had raised their right hands to re-enlist that the service met its retention goals and then some, retaining 106 percent of the soldiers it hoped to keep.

“We needed 51,000 soldiers to re-enlist, and we got 54,151,” said Sgt. Maj. James Vales, a senior retention manager at Army headquarters in Washington.

http://www.instapundit.com/archives/012391.php

 

[Dorian Gray]

You people should see someone about your jerking knees - I am sure therapy is available.

The opinions of the military are roughly the same as the general population. Some of them question what they are doing in Iraq, and the reservists without proper equipment certainly do so.

Your problem is that you want to completely ignore the fact that some members of our armed forces dislike the war in Iraq. You use ad hominem attacks instead of using your eyes to read the damn letters from soldiers who were not afraid to give their names.

And where is YOUR record of military service, Jacko? YOU had better present some credentials yourself if you want to go around making comments like "Thank heaven the soldiers involved in Saddam's capture had better heads on their shoulders." Let's start with the names of the soldiers.

 

[Jocko]

BTW, you don't know anything about the soldiers who captured Saddam.

I know they have a better grasp on the rules of war than you do.

 

[corplinx]

The sad thing is how deluded some of those troops are. And people said the partisan bickering at home and accusations don't effect what the troops abroad think.

And what does Moore get in his letters? "But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation". Thoughts that are the byproduct of poor dissent such as his own.

 

[Luke T.]

I am retired Navy. I'll gladly post a photo of my shadow box if anyone doubts me.

It has always been a complaint, during war or peace, among military people that they don't have enough equipment. Even during the glory days of the buildup under Reagan, we occasionally found ourselves buying parts at Radio Shack out of our own pockets.

Sailors bitch. They bitch every minute of the day. Doesn't matter what about. They just bitch. Thus the expression we had that "a bitching sailor is a happy sailor." I have no reason to doubt that the army has a similar saying. Or the Marines. Or the Air Force.

I'll tell what the talk around the military was in 1991. It was, "Why the hell didn't we go all the way to Bagdad?"

Unlike Zero who claims to have associates who were in Bosnia and the Persian Gulf, I have been to both personally. You want to know what we bitched about? It wasn't about Clinton or Bush or any politicians. It was about being away from home too long. It was about the lousy chow. It was about what a bastard the Executive Officer was. It was about the lack of sleep and how long since we had seen a port. It was about our wives maxing out the credit cards while we were gone. And more than one sailor had gotten a "Dear John" letter from a wife or girlfriend and had to be watched carefully.

I rarely heard anyone bring up the Command in Chief and what they thought of him or if we were being lied to. I can't recall a single person claiming we were being lied to. I remember a few jeers about Clinton and his zipper problem.

As for the military having the same opinions as the general population, I would challenge that any day of the week. The number of men and women in the military who are critical of Bush is probably much lower than the general population.

Watch the next election. Check out the percentage of military votes for Bush. It will be higher than the general population percentage. Guarantee. And Michael Moore knows it, too.

 

[Zero]

The sad thing is how deluded some of those troops are. And people said the partisan bickering at home and accusations don't effect what the troops abroad think.

And what does Moore get in his letters? "But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation". Thoughts that are the byproduct of poor dissent such as his own.

Nothing wrong with dissent...it is as American as apple pie.

 

[Zero]

I wouldn't be counting on that military vote quite as much as in the past, since Bush has been pretty anti-military and anti-veteran in practice, whatever his speeches might say.

 

[corplinx]

Nothing wrong with dissent...it is as American as apple pie.

Principled dissent is a good thing. Someone always need to ask "is this the right thing to do". Moore's line of dissent is based on oil connections conspiracies, cia training osama, etc etc.

 

[KelvinG]

Principled dissent is a good thing. Someone always need to ask "is this the right thing to do". Moore's line of dissent is based on oil connections conspiracies, cia training osama, etc etc.

Some of Moore's cock and bull line of thinking reminds me of Bush's cock and bull lines about why Iraq was invaded in the first place. Y'know, weapons of mass destruction, links to Al Qaeda, imminent nuclear threat.
Looks like propoganda and deception run both ways.

 

[Dancing David]

( I am not nor have I ever been in the military)

I like Micheal Moore, I am glad that he is there to say the things that a lot of people think but won't say.

But I don't like the way he does it, maybe being obnoxiuos is a way of getting attention, I don't know. Maybe he is making a parody of people who quote soldiers to back what they have to say. I don't know.

I like Mr. Moore but I don't like the way he does things. It comes off as disingenuine.

 

[Luke T.]

I wouldn't be counting on that military vote quite as much as in the past, since Bush has been pretty anti-military and anti-veteran in practice, whatever his speeches might say.

I'll tell you why I disagree. As a veteran of many long separations from home due to military deployments, I can tell you that during the away period, it really, really sucks. And sometimes you just plain hate it. But once it is over and behind you, the memory quickly fades of how bad it was, especially if you feel like you actually did some good in the world. Made an impact. And everyone of our men and women "over there" made one hell of an impact, and they know it. They will be walking tall. I've already seen some of them come home, and they are proud and deservedly so.

Bush will get a huge military vote.

 

[Zero]

I'll tell you why I disagree. As a veteran of many long separations from home due to military deployments, I can tell you that during the away period, it really, really sucks. And sometimes you just plain hate it. But once it is over and behind you, the memory quickly fades of how bad it was, especially if you feel like you actually did some good in the world. Made an impact. And everyone of our men and women "over there" made one hell of an impact, and they know it. They will be walking tall. I've already seen some of them come home, and they are proud and deservedly so.

Bush will get a huge military vote.

Well...good points, but I'm not seeing it that way. I guess we'll see which factors play out next year, won't we?

 

[Zero]

Principled dissent is a good thing. Someone always need to ask "is this the right thing to do". Moore's line of dissent is based on oil connections conspiracies, cia training osama, etc etc.

Well, if you want to include Moore's books...LOL

 

[Troll]

I wasn't a "hair to young" for the first Gulf War. Yes people are gonna hate being there. It sucks being away from your loved ones. When the action began the complaining died ( not faded, but died a quick and hard death), not because there weren't things to complain about, incoming artillery waking you up in your nice little hole in the ground sucks and we'd bitch about it, but it stopped because we finally went to work. When it was over, we waited to go home. Each day that passed that we weren't moving closer to the rear or actually on a plane home the bitching grew. It takes time to pull out and we all knew that from past deployments, but we still bitched because we didn't have much else to do.

While there though, it was noticable beyond belief that if you ran into reservists, mostly MP's, the complaining was damned near endless. Mostly because they weren't use to any long periods away from home to begin with, and no offense to the Army but even they don't rotate for 6 month deployments which can get extended at a moments notice.

When we got home from the first one, as with all deployments, the stuff we were complaining about was quickly forgotten and put into that part of the brain that guys use when they try to impress some chick with their little war stories. The new focus was booze and getting laid. Cognitive disonance is a funny thing.

You have to be careful with Moore. He's heavilly focused on his agenda and hearing himself speak. More often than not, when hit with something he doesn't have a snappy comeback for he switches subjects. Sure he's going to post letters that support his side. The chances of getting letters from the higher percentage of active duty military personel that disagree with him are slim due to three reasons.

1. Those that hate him are going to focus more on the job at hand and don't care to spend time writing someone they disagree with.

2. Some would love to write but are cautious as their words may be taken as a threat by someone that has a tendancy for showboating.

3. Moore wouldn't post them because they would counter his beliefs.

Sure some just don't want to be there. Some just don't want to be anywhere at all but on a base in the states and should have thought harder about things before enlisting to begin with. And some are like Zero who want to get in get the bennies and get out. But when the majority of troops speak, what do you get? Zero, Moore, shemp and others doubting them, claiming it was all staged for PR and that it's just not true as though evidence from a small percentage would support them.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Funny how you quickly divert the conversation away from your alleged service, and rather that actually support your point you try to put words in my mouth.

Very telling indeed. I imagine a real military man would have risen to the challenge, rather than try to cast random aspersions on someone whose opinions he knows little about.

This sort of thing happens on the internet all the time, Jocko. Person A says he was in the military, Person B says bull****, and neither can find a way to prove it without comprimising the other's privacy. Please don't turn this into another one of those sessions, they are very annoying and boring. Take his claim of military service with a grain of salt, but don't keep -you will pardon the pun- jocking him.