Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Ginger]

The average male in the us is 197 lbs. Mike brown was 300 lbs. So 100 lbs more sounds like the product of a person thinking about the average weight of an adult male in the US, yes.

We don't know how tall one police officer is, so putting wilsons height as taller than the officer next to simply informs us that he is not the shortest officer in the FPD, but tells us nothing about his actual height.

As for not thin... is he wearing a vest ?

Your concept of thinking needs work.

Wilson looks tall and a just a tad portly in the post-shooting video. If you want to dismiss what we see by claiming the other officer, who doesn't look particularly short, could still be short, seems like more silliness.

Anyway, who cares? Brown likely outweighed Wilson but neither is particularly small.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...To be honest, despite what SG says, I haven't really figured out how the audio fits in at all. I don't understand how the first shot could be missed on the audio as the individual that recorded was obviously was MID conversation, not at the beginning of the conversation. I don't understand how Brown got so far away, or why there were pauses at all.

Well your first problem is this false assumption.

.1) Wilson obviously had more ammo in the gun. If he just wanted to put as many holes in Brown as possible there would be no pause at all. Right? He would have kept going until the gun went *click*

2) It could be that in pursuit he stopped running, Brown turned around (all gun shots are in the front),

And here's your second unsupported claim. No matter how many times this has been explained, you keep repeating your mistake.

.Wilson waited for him to turn around and then finished the job. This would mean that Wilson has some answering to do.

3) How does the situation at the car fit in? What happened to cause a pause or how did it get to the gun in the first place?

I really, really don't think that without the confrontation at the car that Wilson's first reaction would have been to go for the gun. As I have stated before, without knowing the details of what happened initially I don't know who was to blame, if there was one party. At this time I see it as a bad series of events as a result of poor choices by BOTH parties.

Is anyone at all saying no shot occurred from the car?

 

[Skeletor]

Amazing that SG knows what cops should do and what they would care about, it's like we have our own LEO Sylvia Browne.

These are good questions that need to be addressed.

I believe the claim is that the recording started after shot 1 (or 2 ) ?

The police know how many shots were fired.
The police know if there was a ahot fired in the car or from the car.
The police know if there is powder or powder burns on brown

The police are not trying the case in the media, so we don't know these things yet.

The cynical me says Crump and Parks would have leaked the number of shots fired (a) if he knew and (b) if he thought it helped browns side.
So either they don't know, or it doesn't help.

I agree, and the lack of powder burns definitely negates the stories of the "execution headshot" said by several witnesses.

That CTH site that everybody disses had something not shown elsewhere. A bullet at the second floor level of one of the buildings there. It's impact point jibes with the first shot being a miss out the window. So, not being a close range hit, it would not have left powder burns on the body. Perhaps on the clothing there is plenty of residue.

And from other news snippets, there is supposedly incontrovertible evidence tha Brown was trying to take the gun in the car. Fingerprints, or skin residue on the sharp parts?

The comments section of that page...my faith in humanity is lessened every time I see an article on CTH. That being said, they made an effort to map out what happened, and where people were at each particular moment. What I don't like is, the "man in the green shirt" and the varying conspiracy theories about him. They seem to think this man conspired with the other witnesses to start a protest. Did he? I'm doubtful about that.

Here is a pretty good timeline on CNN that has some maps and details what the Brown camp and witnesses say, and what the police side have stated:
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/08/us/ferguson-brown-timeline/index.html

The evidence that he was going for the gun is the fact that he needs to be going for the gun in order to exonerate Wilson and since we know that he is innocent then Brown had to be going for the gun.


Once you determine your conclusion then evidence is easy.

If there is DNA or fingerprints from Brown on the gun, yes indeed that follows the narrative that Brown was aggressive towards Wilson.
(Nice tarsier in your avatar, btw!)

It does both, but in this case, it definitely sounds like a recorded video message. And a private one, at that.

(Corny, too...)

That poor guy in the recording, I really feel sorry for him. I wonder how this will be admitted into evidence, complete with the other dialogue? Totally corny, but love is kinda corny anyway.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

No SG doesn't.

SG cites the evidence and the conclusions she bases on that evidence. Certain forum members then attack SG personally and make big issues of red herrings.

There have been some scenarios suggested because if you stretch credulity you can contrive a scenario that fits the evidence. SG doesn't accept those credulity stretching scenarios. It's not wiggle room that's the problem.

Come up with something more realistic than Brown was bull-rushing Wilson and it will be considered. Because I find that scenario ludicrous given the evidence does not mean that I'm not being skeptical. It means some people are denying their confirmation bias and it isn't me.

I really don't recall anyone here at JREF forums putting ' bull-rushing ' forth as a likely scenario; not recently anyway, but it is something you frequently argue against as if it is seriously worth discrediting..

Could you clarify who you are arguing against in this regard...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
Are you quite certain of your assertion?
These people seem to think otherwise.

http://www.firearmsid.com/a_distancegsr.htm

The issue is not how far is it possible to find powder in some cases. The question is what is the minimal distance possible if none is found?

In the autopsy press conference Baden said the shots could have been as few as a couple feet to many feet away.

Monkety called you the LEO Sylvia and mocked your ability to state what SOP should be, but then turned right around and said what he thought constituted a good shooting if he were LEO.

It's a derail that should end right now.

Yes, red herring derail is the name of the dodge the actual issue game.

 

[Unabogie]

I really don't recall anyone here at JREF forums putting ' bull-rushing ' forth as a likely scenario; not recently anyway, but it is something you frequently argue against as if it is seriously worth discrediting..

Could you clarify who you are arguing against in this regard...

So you're in agreement that Brown did NOT charge at Wilson? If not, then this is what the audio seems to address.

 

[Cain]

I really don't recall anyone here at JREF forums putting ' bull-rushing ' forth as a likely scenario; not recently anyway, but it is something you frequently argue against as if it is seriously worth discrediting..

Could you clarify who you are arguing against in this regard...

Since Brown's unarmed, the only way to justify the shooting is if Brown's coming toward him. If he's not coming toward him, and all the shots are to the front, then how can Wilson justify the shooting?

Here's what could have transpired:

Brown and Johnson fled after the gun went off in the car, which seems like a natural enough reaction. Wilson pursues, closes the gap, yells "Freeze!" The old joke about the philosopher and the scientist getting chased by the bear applies: Johnson simply needs to outrun Big Mike, so he's free and clear. Fight or Flight, two of the four fs when it comes to human nature (feeding, fighting, fleeing, mating).

So Brown brakes, turns around. What has he done? Stolen some cheap cigars, jaywalked and scuffled with the police. Maybe he figures "you're not gonna shoot me."

 

[Mumbles]

The comments section of that page...my faith in humanity is lessened every time I see an article on CTH. That being said, they made an effort to map out what happened, and where people were at each particular moment. What I don't like is, the "man in the green shirt" and the varying conspiracy theories about him. They seem to think this man conspired with the other witnesses to start a protest. Did he? I'm doubtful about that.

That's actually the real problem here. They outright hate black people, sure, but they also spin all sorts of wild conspiracies based on loose threads and complete misunderstandings. I like playing with these theories, of course (wouldn't be on this thread otherwise), but they cling to just plain idiotic beliefs to the bitter end, even when the available evidence refuted them right from the start (my personal favorite was the photo of Tracy Martin and friends wearing red t-shirts, which they used as proof that they were Crips). It's kind of like if Alex Jones joined the Klan.

If there is DNA or fingerprints from Brown on the gun, yes indeed that follows the narrative that Brown was aggressive towards Wilson.
(Nice tarsier in your avatar, btw!)

Well, on the *handle*, anyway. If they're on the barrel...but didn't we all do this a year or two ago?

That poor guy in the recording, I really feel sorry for him. I wonder how this will be admitted into evidence, complete with the other dialogue? Totally corny, but love is kinda corny anyway.

Nah, he had time to think through what he was going to say, he's corny. I guess the prosecution lucked out that he was trying to put the moves on someone that day, though. Although, she should be complimented - he was not about to let some gunfire stop him.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

And I believe that is ALL of the evidence for that imagining we will ever have. But he still won't be charged with anything.

That's my assumption in this case. Not because of corruptness or racial bias but because he still has the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.

Based upon what I have seen so far, excluding wild speculation, it's that there is enough wriggle room to get to a not guilty (or no bill if it stops at the grand jury, but given the political environment I doubt it) determination.

It has a strong smell of Zimmerman all over again.

Same key players right down to the lawyers representing the family. Only the bit players have changed (no disrespect meant to Brown or Wilson but in this type of theater they didn't even make it into the opening act, just the prologue with a cameo here and there) and I honestly think that the key players don't actually care about them.

Get out mis or dis information to sway potential jurors early and often.

Get the talking heads to misrepresent what people actually said or did.

The list goes on and on. It saddens me that people play games with other peoples lives just for their own entertainment.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think the only thing that will save Wilson from a felony charge of some sort, is if he actually does have a busted eye socket.

I think that would influence the GJ not to charge Wilson because of the evidence of a serious beating.

If he was just punched in the eye, I don't think the GJ will consider that enough to pursue Brown as a felon, even though it actually is a felony to punch a cop.

Barring any other big news that tips the scale one way or the other, that's about where I am right now.

Also keep in mind that I(we) would really like to hear from Wilson.

I actually do think Brown probably turned and went after Wilson. There are various reasons and scenarios for that possibility, but without any confirmation, it's just a feeling.

 

[plague311]

Which part, that he was firing at him as he ran, or whether or not this was allowable?

I'm not sure what the law says there, but as Monkety did, I'm saying what I think is OK and what I would hope most people would agree on: police should use deadly force only to stop deadly force, not to prevent strongarm cigar robbers from getting away with $50 worth of cigarillos.

Oh ok, my fault. I thought you were saying he couldn't, as in the law dictated that he was breaking the law by firing at him. I didn't realize it was from a moral standpoint.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

So you're in agreement that Brown did NOT charge at Wilson? If not, then this is what the audio seems to address.

I don't think there is any reason at this point to dismiss the possibility that Wilson perceived aggressive behavior from Brown.

SG seems intent on using inflammatory terminology and attributing it to imaginary people who are not presenting the arguments she claims they are..

She repeatedly argues that someone is attributing the top-of-the-head shot to ' bull-rushing ', when no one has claimed that, but presented plausible alternative explanations, that do not include willful execution, with an awareness that Brown was trying to surrender..

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't think there is any reason at this point to dismiss the possibility that Wilson perceived aggressive behavior from Brown.

SG seems intent on using inflammatory terminology and attributing it to imaginary people who are not presenting the arguments she claims they are..

She repeatedly argues that someone is attributing the top-of-the-head shot to ' bull-rushing ', when no one has claimed that, but presented plausible alternative explanations, that do not include willful execution, with an awareness that Brown was trying to surrender..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#James_McKnight

James McKnight said he witnessed the shooting and that Brown held his hands in the air just after he turned to face Wilson. "I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him. The officer was about six or seven feet away from him," McKnight said.[47]

Brady then ran outside with his camera phone to record the event. By the time he got outside, Brown had turned around and was facing Wilson. Brown was "balled up" with his arms under his stomach and he was "halfway down" to the ground. As he was falling, Brown took one or two steps toward Wilson because he was presumably hit and was stumbling forward; Wilson then shot him three or four times

Crenshaw stated, "I saw the police chase him ... down the street and shoot him down."[71] She added that when Brown then raised his arms, the officer shot him two more times, killing him.[72]

Yet somehow this all agrees with an audio recording. It doesn't even agree with each other.

 

[Unabogie]

I actually do think Brown probably turned and went after Wilson. There are various reasons and scenarios for that possibility, but without any confirmation, it's just a feeling.

She repeatedly argues that someone is attributing the top-of-the-head shot to ' bull-rushing ', when no one has claimed that, but presented plausible alternative explanations, that do not include willful execution, with an awareness that Brown was trying to surrender..

Oh? ^^^^

He isn't the first. What I am saying is that he could NOT have turned and gone after Wilson, because the time from the pause to the last volley of shots is way too short for that. This recording demolishes this theory. It could not have happened this way.

 

[plague311]

An unarmed fleeing suspect is a threat, how?

Because he had, at least at this point, proven that he is willing to be aggressive towards, not just police, but civilians. Running doesn't mean you aren't a threat to others, just that he may not be a thread to Wilson at the time.

Common police sense would say let the kid run, get his friend and track Brown down later. It is extremely unlikely Brown could not later be found.

This is just more armchair quarterbacking. Just because he isn't a threat to Wilson doesn't mean he isn't a threat. Plus, I tackled the case of Johnson, you're assuming that Wilson KNEW that Johnson was hiding by that car. That's not the case, unless you can prove it. They both ran, Wilson followed one individual, how could he have known where both were?

*snip* Come up with something more realistic than Brown was bull-rushing Wilson and it will be considered. *snip*

That's a nice strawman, but I didn't "come up" with anything. I also haven't taken a firm stance on anything, unlike some others.

Well your first problem is this false assumption.

I openly stated that I wasn't familiar with the software, and even more to the point, I never made an assumption. I said I didn't understand something, that's not making an assumption, it's asking for clarification. Which I received from a few members after I posted it. Want help back up on your high horse, or you got a step ladder?

And here's your second unsupported claim. No matter how many times this has been explained, you keep repeating your mistake.

Once again, it's not an assumption. It was shown by the autopsy report. Do you have a link from the first autopsy report that shows he was shot from the back? Are you going off of the second autopsy where there is no definite answer? Did any of the ME's specifically say there was a shot to the back? Who's making assumptions again? Either way, the fact would be he had to turn around to receive the rest of the injuries. The killing shots weren't at his back. That one shot, if it hit his arm, IS IRRELEVANT to the point I was making. If Wilson waited for him to turn around, and there was no aggressive movement by Brown, yet Wilson laid him out. Then Wilson should have to face some charges.

Is anyone at all saying no shot occurred from the car?

Did anything in the statement you quoted give you the impression that I don't believe there was a shot from the car? Are you even reading what you're quoting? Nothing in my statement said that I don't believe a shot was fired in the car. Keep up.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Oh? ^^^^

He isn't the first. What I am saying is that he could NOT have turned and gone after Wilson, because the time from the pause to the last volley of shots is way too short for that. This recording demolishes this theory. It could not have happened this way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#James_McKnight

James McKnight said he witnessed the shooting and that Brown held his hands in the air just after he turned to face Wilson. "I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him. The officer was about six or seven feet away from him," McKnight said.[47]

Brady then ran outside with his camera phone to record the event. By the time he got outside, Brown had turned around and was facing Wilson. Brown was "balled up" with his arms under his stomach and he was "halfway down" to the ground. As he was falling, Brown took one or two steps toward Wilson because he was presumably hit and was stumbling forward; Wilson then shot him three or four times

Someone should tell the witnesses about what is possible and what isn't ...

 

[casebro]

At 6-7 feet separation, the big guy falling forward WOULD be a charge.

And no bullets to the abdomen makes me doubt the arms cradling his belly part.

Did Brady get video that we havn't heard of?

 

[LTC8K6]

The tops of the shoulders would seem to be prime candidates for a direct hit with a leaning, head down, "bull rush".

Especially the right shoulder, with a cop who seems to be pulling shots to the left.

I think the head shots have to be during the final fall to the ground.

Any execution stories, or stories about shooting during a surrender, seem very unlikely to me.

I have no problem with the idea that Wilson could not legally shoot Brown, and should go to jail for it, but I do not think Wilson just shot him "like a dog".

 

[plague311]

Oh? ^^^^

He isn't the first. What I am saying is that he could NOT have turned and gone after Wilson, because the time from the pause to the last volley of shots is way too short for that. This recording demolishes this theory. It could not have happened this way.

The recording also doesn't go well with the eye witness statements either. All of them have Brown turning around, and no firing until he is all the way turned around. The recording could cause this to be a different story all together. I don't see why people are claiming the recording supports all the witnesses.

 

[LTC8K6]

Oh? ^^^^

He isn't the first. What I am saying is that he could NOT have turned and gone after Wilson, because the time from the pause to the last volley of shots is way too short for that. This recording demolishes this theory. It could not have happened this way.

We have 6 hits, or 8 hits, from the front, depending on which autopsy you want to go by.

It seems likely that Wilson missed a couple times. So all of the shots on the audio could well be while they were facing each other.