Michael Brown Shooting

[Skeptic Ginger]

Unabogie claimed one of the shots must have hit brown at point blank.

My understanding is that at point blank a shot would leave gunshot residue, at least in trace amounts.

Point blank means a close distance. I'm not aware there is an exact measurement for what that distance is.

Three inches or three feet away could both be described as point plank.

Again, what is it you are actually arguing, the term someone used? Some irrelevant difference?

 

[Unabogie]

Not sure which thing is specifically the issue here but, I said a couple things about SOPs.

One, I said it appeared to be the typical behavior for Ferguson cops to see young black men as criminals and Wilson likely approached these two antagonistically. That was an opinion on the effects of the citizens v cops history in Ferguson.

And two, I said it wouldn't be the SOP to pull up to robbery suspects too close to open your door and get out of the vehicle. That was a mistake Wilson allegedly made. If anyone doubts the standard SOP, take a look at the video of the Ferguson cops killing the mentally disturbed man at the store. That's how cops pull up and get out of a car, gun drawn, ordering the suspect to take his hands out of his pockets and so on.

Monkety called you the LEO Sylvia and mocked your ability to state what SOP should be, but then turned right around and said what he thought constituted a good shooting if he were LEO.

It's a derail that should end right now.

 

[Kestrel]

A guy (allegedly) appears in a frame of a blurry video, shot from some distance and perspective, appears maybe to be slightly larger than another guy, who is at a slightly different distance, angle and perspective.

I can see how the Amanda Knox threads went forever. CSI-level genius is participating in these threads.

The Amanda Knox threads started with most JREF regulars believing she was guilty. Opinios shifted over time as the evidence was dissected, timelines were pinned down and participants became more acquainted with certain scientific fields. What keeps the threads alive is a slow influx of posters posting slight variations on long debunked pro guilt themes.

Discussion of this case is hampered by the fact that much of the evidence has not been released. We do however have some witness reports, video of events before and after the shooting, some crime scene photos, audio showing the timing of most of the shots and some information from an autopsy. We also have information indicating that the relationship between the Ferguson police and residents left a lot to be desired. This does give us a lot to talk about.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

please elaborate

On what?

Should we go over all the specific examples of racism in Ferguson and nearby communities again?

Think the community just rioted over Brown's death because it seemed like fun?

 

[plague311]

You could tell what kind of shape Mr. Brown was in, based on that video? Seriously?

ETA - I don't mean to be a jerk; please link the version you are viewing. The only one I saw was a gif that was blurry.

http://youtu.be/FHxXGvXQrno

I am not saying that I know what weight he is specifically, but I can tell he's not "fat" by any means. Compare it to the first 40 seconds of this video

http://youtu.be/AK3PTx9bmOI

I can tell that this person is overweight just by the video.

ETA: Apparently my ability to embed youtube video is failing me.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Point blank means a close distance. I'm not aware there is an exact measurement for what that distance is.

Three inches or three feet away could both be described as point plank.

Again, what is it you are actually arguing, the term someone used? Some irrelevant difference?

I understand what point blank means.

My understanding is that there was no gunshot residue on brown (per baden) so he was not shot point blank.

I am still trying to understand the scenario that works with the 10 gunshots and the witness statements.

For example, Michael Brady saw a tussle. He didn't hear a shot at the car, the first shot was at browns back at least 20 feet away. 1 or 2 shots, and wilson didn't hit brown.

How does that work with the recording ?

 

[carlitos]

One, I said it appeared to be the typical behavior for Ferguson cops to see young black men as criminals and Wilson likely approached these two antagonistically.

please elaborate

On what?

Wilson likely approached these two antagonistically​

That. Please elaborate, based on your expertise in ... whatever ... how you know that "Wilson likely approached these two antagonistically."

Thanks.

Should we go over all the specific examples of racism in Ferguson and nearby communities again?

No.

Think the community just rioted over Brown's death because it seemed like fun?

I don't believe that the "community" did anything, but that's a conversation for another thread.

 

[tsig]

They take the liberty of saying the shot had to be the one from the car because it was so poorly aimed if it wasn't.

But you cannot rule out "poorly aimed" at this point. And without ballistics, how can the blog speculators rule out ricochet?

Who is making the claim again that there is "incontrovertible evidence that Brown was trying to take the gun in the car"?

The evidence that he was going for the gun is the fact that he needs to be going for the gun in order to exonerate Wilson and since we know that he is innocent then Brown had to be going for the gun.


Once you determine your conclusion then evidence is easy.

 

[BenBurch]

The evidence that he was going for the gun is the fact that he needs to be going for the gun in order to exonerate Wilson and since we know that he is innocent then Brown had to be going for the gun.


Once you determine your conclusion then evidence is easy.

And I believe that is ALL of the evidence for that imagining we will ever have. But he still won't be charged with anything.

 

[Mumbles]

I didn't think he was fat at all, definitely not by the convenience store video at least. He looked to be in fairly decent shape. That's slightly irrelevant though.

To be honest, despite what SG says, I haven't really figured out how the audio fits in at all. I don't understand how the first shot could be missed on the audio as the individual that recorded was obviously was MID conversation, not at the beginning of the conversation. I don't understand how Brown got so far away, or why there were pauses at all.

He wasn't really having a conversation - the software basically makes a video recording of yourself and then send it to another person. And since it already tells the recipient who it comes from, there's no need to start with "Hi so and so, it's me..." So missing a first shot would not be that hard. In other words, the guy starts the recording, and says "you're so pretty..." And naturally, like everything else days, it has a time stamp to say when it was sent.

As to why the pause in the shots, well, that'll be speculation for now.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

So in light of the new audio, do you currently think it's possible that between the first six shots and the last four, it was possible for Brown to stop running (remember, as Cain pointed out, he was a fat guy and probably took a while to stop moving), turned around, taunted Wilson, and then began charging back? Or do you concede that this would be impossible, based on the short amount of time between the volleys?

I think you may be underestimating what can transpire in three seconds ( the time between volleys ) or more..

In addition, all of browns reaction, assuming it included changing direction, didn't take place between the 6 & 4 volleys.. They couldn't have if he was hit 5 or 6 times from the front..

He had to have already turned and taken a hit before the 4 shot volley was fired..

Whether he was rushing or falling forward, at least one shot had to hit him in the top of the head.. Falling forward after taking a couple of hits or more, makes more sense to me..

I also don't see how Wilson was making any conscious decisions about the situation during the last four shots. he was just pulling the trigger. So, if Brown was not face down before the seventh shot, then the last four were just Wilson's continuing reaction to what had happened up to that point. And one happened to hit him in the top of the head.. I don't believe there was any indication that Wilson fired ' downward ' toward the top of Browns head.

It is easy to imagine that as Brown fell forward, for whatever reason, one of the volley of four, hit him in the top of the head, without Wilson consciously aiming for it, or thinking he was delivering a kill shot..

There is no reason to believe he stopped moving for any significant amount of time before his face hit the ground...


I'm just presenting this as a possibility of what happened, and not as some kind of justification for Wilson's actions, whether it happened this way or not..

 

[Unabogie]

I think you may be underestimating what can transpire in three seconds ( the time between volleys ) or more..

In addition, all of browns reaction, assuming it included changing direction, didn't take place between the 6 & 4 volleys.. They couldn't have if he was hit 5 or 6 times from the front..

He had to have already turned before the 4 shot volley was fired..

Whether he was rushing or falling forward, at least one shot had to hit him in the top of the head.. Falling forward after taking a couple of hits or more, makes more sense to me..

I also don't see how Wilson was making any conscious decisions about the situation during the last four shots. he was just pulling the trigger. So, if Brown was not face down before the seventh shot, then the last four were just Wilson's continuing reaction to what had happened up to that point. And one happened to hit him in the top of the head.. I don't believe there was any indication that Wilson fired ' downward ' toward the top of Browns head.

It is easy to imagine that as Brown fell forward, for whatever reason, one of the volley of four, hit him in the top of the head, without Wilson consciously aiming for it, or thinking he was delivering a kill shot..

There is no reason to believe he stopped moving for any significant amount of time before his face hit the ground...


I'm just presenting this as a possibility of what happened, and not as some kind of justification for Wilson's actions, whether it happened this way or not..

I don't think there's evidence of an "execution" either. But I also don't believe that Brown turned, taunted Wilson, and then charged him. I don't think that could happen in 3 seconds. Dorian Johnson said that "before he could get the second sentence out, he started shooting him". That matches the tape exactly. I believe the evidence shows that Wilson fired once from the car with Brown outside and Wilson inside. That shot would be JUSTIFIED, IMO. What Wilson did next is where he should be held accountable. He exited the vehicle and shot at the fleeing suspect. Even if you buy the eye socket story, I don't see how that helps, since a cop is not supposed to be shooting at fleeing suspects, but especially so when they themselves are running, and WOW, if his eyesight is blurry, what the hell would he be doing firing a weapon? This says to me his judgement was clouded. My suspicion is that he was pissed off beyond control.

What happened next is that one of the bullets hit Brown in the arm, which made him jerk and stop running. This matches all the accounts. Then he turned around and spoke to Wilson. This matches all accounts.

By this time, Brown had been shot twice, but neither was life threatening.

But as soon as Brown turns and speaks Wilson fires four more shots. We know this because the audio shows the time between the volleys is so short. There was no time to do much else. Had it been 10 seconds, maybe. But it's between 2-3 seconds. There's no way Brown stopped, turned, talked, then charged. Witnesses and the recordings and the forensics are all pretty well in agreement here unless you want to nitpick minor errors from the people who were there.

So that means all four final shots hit. This also shows the contrast between Wilson's shooting when the suspect is running vs. when he's standing still. All four of those shots hit. That suggests Brown wasn't moving very fast, and that Wilson wasn't running either.

Again, this matches the witnesses.

All in all, I think the evidence is squarely against the officer unless there's some hidden evidence the Ferguson police is sitting on for some unknown reason. But judging by the way they leak so far, I'd bet against that.

 

[plague311]

I don't think there's evidence of an "execution" either. But I also don't believe that Brown turned, taunted Wilson, and then charged him. I don't think that could happen in 3 seconds. Dorian Johnson said that "before he could get the second sentence out, he started shooting him". That matches the tape exactly. I believe the evidence shows that Wilson fired once from the car with Brown outside and Wilson inside. That shot would be JUSTIFIED, IMO. What Wilson did next is where he should be held accountable. He exited the vehicle and shot at the fleeing suspect. Even if you buy the eye socket story, I don't see how that helps, since a cop is not supposed to be shooting at fleeing suspects, but especially so when they themselves are running, and WOW, if his eyesight is blurry, what the hell would he be doing firing a weapon? This says to me his judgement was clouded. My suspicion is that he was pissed off beyond control.

What happened next is that one of the bullets hit Brown in the arm, which made him jerk and stop running. This matches all the accounts. Then he turned around and spoke to Wilson. This matches all accounts.

By this time, Brown had been shot twice, but neither was life threatening.

But as soon as Brown turns and speaks Wilson fires four more shots. We know this because the audio shows the time between the volleys is so short. There was no time to do much else. Had it been 10 seconds, maybe. But it's between 2-3 seconds. There's no way Brown stopped, turned, talked, then charged. Witnesses and the recordings and the forensics are all pretty well in agreement here unless you want to nitpick minor errors from the people who were there.

So that means all four final shots hit. This also shows the contrast between Wilson's shooting when the suspect is running vs. when he's standing still. All four of those shots hit. That suggests Brown wasn't moving very fast, and that Wilson wasn't running either.

Again, this matches the witnesses.

All in all, I think the evidence is squarely against the officer unless there's some hidden evidence the Ferguson police is sitting on for some unknown reason. But judging by the way they leak so far, I'd bet against that.

Can you provide a link for the hilited? I was under the impression that once there was cause to believe someone is a threat they may fire until the threat is no more. I might be completely wrong, but there have been numerous posts regarding the law in the state.

 

[plague311]

He wasn't really having a conversation - the software basically makes a video recording of yourself and then send it to another person. And since it already tells the recipient who it comes from, there's no need to start with "Hi so and so, it's me..." So missing a first shot would not be that hard. In other words, the guy starts the recording, and says "you're so pretty..." And naturally, like everything else days, it has a time stamp to say when it was sent.

As to why the pause in the shots, well, that'll be speculation for now.

So it's like a video text message? He videos himself saying words, and then sends it over to the other individual? I'm really not familiar with the software.

 

[HawksFan]

Could the pause in firing be caused by some sort of malfunction with Wilson's gun, perhaps? A hangfire/misfire or stovepipe he had to clear?

 

[Unabogie]

Can you provide a link for the hilited? I was under the impression that once there was cause to believe someone is a threat they may fire until the threat is no more. I might be completely wrong, but there have been numerous posts regarding the law in the state.

Which part, that he was firing at him as he ran, or whether or not this was allowable?

I'm not sure what the law says there, but as Monkety did, I'm saying what I think is OK and what I would hope most people would agree on: police should use deadly force only to stop deadly force, not to prevent strongarm cigar robbers from getting away with $50 worth of cigarillos.

 

[Unabogie]

So it's like a video text message? He videos himself saying words, and then sends it over to the other individual? I'm really not familiar with the software.

It's streaming video, so as it streams it records itself on their servers. The files are saved with location and time stamps, which is how it's been authenticated.

 

[Mumbles]

It's streaming video, so as it streams it records itself on their servers. The files are saved with location and time stamps, which is how it's been authenticated.

It does both, but in this case, it definitely sounds like a recorded video message. And a private one, at that.

(Corny, too...)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Can you provide a link for the hilited? I was under the impression that once there was cause to believe someone is a threat they may fire until the threat is no more. I might be completely wrong, but there have been numerous posts regarding the law in the state.

An unarmed fleeing suspect is a threat, how?

Because he tussled with Wilson?

Common police sense would say let the kid run, get his friend and track Brown down later. It is extremely unlikely Brown could not later be found.

But if you are pissed and not a well disciplined cop ...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... SG states everything as if it's an absolute with no wiggle room.....

No SG doesn't.

SG cites the evidence and the conclusions she bases on that evidence. Certain forum members then attack SG personally and make big issues of red herrings.

There have been some scenarios suggested because if you stretch credulity you can contrive a scenario that fits the evidence. SG doesn't accept those credulity stretching scenarios. It's not wiggle room that's the problem.

Come up with something more realistic than Brown was bull-rushing Wilson and it will be considered. Because I find that scenario ludicrous given the evidence does not mean that I'm not being skeptical. It means some people are denying their confirmation bias and it isn't me.