Michael Brown shooting II

[Skeptic Tank]

What? George Zimmerman (in Florida) was on his back being pummeled. He was prosecuted and almost got convicted.
Try looking up the actual text of stand your ground laws. You're writing like you have no idea what they actually are. Even states with SYG laws require a person to have a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm to use deadly force.

Yea, but keep in mind the law and evidence was completely ignored in order to do that.

To appease exactly the same sort of bloodthirsty, race-loyal idiots who wanted Wilson prosecuted, of course.

 

[plague311]

What? George Zimmerman (in Florida) was on his back being pummeled. He was prosecuted and almost got convicted.

Try looking up the actual text of stand your ground laws. You're writing like you have no idea what they actually are. Even states with SYG laws require a person to have a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm to use deadly force.

So it's your position that Wilson didn't have a reasonable fear of imminent death or bodily harm? Mind you, Wilson can't just walk away from the situation either. His job requires him to protect that community (which Brown had already attacked a member of), and to protect himself.

 

[Newtons Bit]

So it's your position that Wilson didn't have a reasonable fear of imminent death or bodily harm?

Yes. I believe that he had a reasonable fear of getting his ass kicked, but not death or great bodily harm.

Mind you, Wilson can't just walk away from the situation either. His job requires him to protect that community (which Brown had already attacked a member of), and to protect himself.

A police officer has multiple tools at their disposal that are substantially less lethal than firearms. If he felt that the risk of getting his ass kicked was too high even with the aid of those other tools, then he should have pursued Brown safely in his vehicle while waiting for backup to arrive.

 

[mgidm86]

Yes. I believe that he had a reasonable fear of getting his ass kicked, but not death or great bodily harm.

He had a reasonable fear of having his ass kicked and his gun taken away and shot with it, as Brown had already unsuccessfully tried to do. Or beaten severely, or beaten to death. How can you guys still argue this? Now it's down to the physical weight of Brown vs Wilson? The jerk tried to kill a cop in his own car when he went for his gun! This is insane.

How can you say there was no threat of great bodily harm? If there were more new threads I wouldn't keep peeking back into this one. Unbelievable.

 

[WildCat]

They shouldn't, however, the law as constructed only allows the use of deadly force if the victim has a reasonable belief that they are in danger of great bodily harm or death. If this was an average Joe in a similar situation, the police would have arrested the victim, charged him with murder and would almost certainly succeed with a conviction. I cannot see why we should give the police extra self-defense protection. Either everyone gets to use force in this manner or no one should.

I don't think that's true at all.

 

[WildCat]

What? George Zimmerman (in Florida) was on his back being pummeled. He was prosecuted and almost got convicted.

Try looking up the actual text of stand your ground laws. You're writing like you have no idea what they actually are. Even states with SYG laws require a person to have a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm to use deadly force.

No they don't. Even here in Illinois deadly force is allowed to stop a forcible felony.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Yes. I believe that he had a reasonable fear of getting his ass kicked, but not death or great bodily harm.


A police officer has multiple tools at their disposal that are substantially less lethal than firearms. If he felt that the risk of getting his ass kicked was too high even with the aid of those other tools, then he should have pursued Brown safely in his vehicle while waiting for backup to arrive.

Any officer who is in a neighborhood he knows to be criminal-sympathetic and cop-hostile who is attacked by two robbery suspects, one of whom is enormous and making a move for his service weapon... is going to be fearing for his life, and not merely fearing a beating.

You have to remember that from Wilson's perspective at that time, Dorian Johnson was another assailant who would be launching his own attack at any moment. He was an accomplice in full agreement with Brown's actions, readying his own firearm from a vantage point behind where Brown was forcing Wilson to keep his full focus.

That later turned out to not be the case, and Johnson ended up having been in a "I don't want any part of this" mindset toward Brown that day, and neither man had a firearm... but the officer had no way of knowing this during the encounter, and had every reason to assume otherwise.

 

[plague311]

Yes. I believe that he had a reasonable fear of getting his ass kicked, but not death or great bodily harm.

As previously stated, he had gone for Wilson's gun. You don't make a play for a gun unless you intend to use it. Blatantly put, Wilson was literally fighting for his life to keep that gun away from Brown. There is no other way to put it. You need to go back and look at the physical evidence. You're obviously out of touch.

A police officer has multiple tools at their disposal that are substantially less lethal than firearms.

Name them. If you kept up with the thread you'd know that Wilson didn't carry a taser. Maybe he had pepper spray. If that's your theory, do me a favor. Go out to your car, roll down your driver's side window. Put something in the window that would block most of it, and make it stay close to your face. Then spray the hell out of it. See what your chances are after that. What we wish would have happened isn't always compatible with reality. No one wanted this kid to die, no one even knew who he was.

If he felt that the risk of getting his ass kicked was too high even with the aid of those other tools, then he should have pursued Brown safely in his vehicle while waiting for backup to arrive.

Sweet FSM. Ok, so now it's painfully obvious that you just haven't read, at least, the last 10 pages of this thread. This stupid meme has been obliterated ad nauseam. The kids told the cop point blank that they were "but a minute" from their house. Johnson's testimony said that where he was hiding after the encounter began (by the car) was pretty much directly in front of his house, which was where they were headed. Wilson called in for backup before the confrontation began, backup didn't get there until after the entire event happened. I don't know what the exact time that backup arrived, or what the time of the encounter was but I know it was >90 seconds. By the time backup would have arrived Brown and Johnson would have been gone.

A cops job isn't to let violent criminals go when they locate them. If they did that the police force would be the biggest waste of tax payer money ever. They would be completely useless. I don't want police officers to do that in my neighborhood. I want them to stop them, arrest them, and get them the hell out of my neighborhood.

 

[plague311]

Any officer who is in a neighborhood he knows to be criminal-sympathetic and cop-hostile who is attacked by two robbery suspects, one of whom is enormous and making a move for his service weapon... is going to be fearing for his life, and not merely fearing a beating.

You have to remember that from Wilson's perspective at that time, Dorian Johnson was another assailant who would be launching his own attack at any moment. He was an accomplice in full agreement with Brown's actions, readying his own firearm from a vantage point behind where Brown was forcing Wilson to keep his full focus.

That later turned out to not be the case, and Johnson ended up having been in a "I don't want any part of this" mindset toward Brown that day, and neither man had a firearm... but the officer had no way of knowing this during the encounter, and had every reason to assume otherwise.

Completely solid point Skeptic. I don't know if the neighborhood was criminal-sympathetic, I think there was a lot of confusion. Everything else was spot on though.

 

[Newtons Bit]

As previously stated, he had gone for Wilson's gun.

Did he actually do it though? The police at the scene did not fingerprint Wilson's gun and then give somewhat conflicting account about whether or not there was a struggle. The whole scenario sounds like they worked out an official scenario and had to change a few details, but had to pretend to be grossly incompetent at the grand jury trial.

source: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370672-grand-jury-volume-3.html

Put something in the window that would block most of it, and make it stay close to your face. Then spray the hell out of it.

Wilson did not shoot and kill Brown from inside of his car. I know you're aware of that, so this statement of yours is remarkably dishonest. His pepper spray could have been easily used while they were both out in the open on the street.

Wilson also carried a night stick. Less effective and more risky, but it's still an option.

However Wilson choose not to carry a taser. It is a standard piece of equipment for Ferguson PD. Wilson choose not to carry it. Just like the police department choose not to install the dashboard cameras it had on hand. Strange that. I wonder why they kept choosing not to use equipment like that?

No they don't. Even here in Illinois deadly force is allowed to stop a forcible felony.

Almost all forcible felonies carry the risk of bodily harm, usually with the aid of a weapon in case of things like robbery (which would make a reasonble fear of great bodily harm or death). But someone could be convicted of felony robbery for threatening to cause non-great bodily harm in a robbery, so I'll concede the point.

However, with regards to this particular case, Wilson claimed that he feared for his life. Which is what I was getting at, the same criteria applies for a cop who "fears for his life" as for a regular joe.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I cannot see why we should give the police extra self-defense protection.

Wow.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Yes. I believe that he had a reasonable fear of getting his ass kicked, but not death or great bodily harm.

I guess St. Michael was only grabbing at his gun to to make sure Wilson had maintained it properly. Sort of a public service.

 

[Newtons Bit]

I guess St. Michael was only grabbing at his gun to to make sure Wilson had maintained it properly. Sort of a public service.

Obviously.

 

[plague311]

Did he actually do it though? The police at the scene did not fingerprint Wilson's gun and then give somewhat conflicting account about whether or not there was a struggle. The whole scenario sounds like they worked out an official scenario and had to change a few details, but had to pretend to be grossly incompetent at the grand jury trial.

source: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370672-grand-jury-volume-3.html



Wilson did not shoot and kill Brown from inside of his car. I know you're aware of that, so this statement of yours is remarkably dishonest. His pepper spray could have been easily used while they were both out in the open on the street.

Wilson also carried a night stick. Less effective and more risky, but it's still an option.

However Wilson choose not to carry a taser. It is a standard piece of equipment for Ferguson PD. Wilson choose not to carry it. Just like the police department choose not to install the dashboard cameras it had on hand. Strange that. I wonder why they kept choosing not to use equipment like that?



Almost all forcible felonies carry the risk of bodily harm, usually with the aid of a weapon in case of things like robbery (which would make a reasonble fear of great bodily harm or death). But someone could be convicted of felony robbery for threatening to cause non-great bodily harm in a robbery, so I'll concede the point.

However, with regards to this particular case, Wilson claimed that he feared for his life. Which is what I was getting at, the same criteria applies for a cop who "fears for his life" as for a regular joe.

Sorry, I don't engage conspiracy theorists. Good day.

 

[theprestige]

However, with regards to this particular case, Wilson claimed that he feared for his life. Which is what I was getting at, the same criteria applies for a cop who "fears for his life" as for a regular joe.

Let's see... Regular Joe passes Brown and Dorian walking in the street, stops alongside, tells them to get on the sidewalk. Brown assaults Joe, and fearing for his life Joe shoots Brown dead.

Yeah, I'm not seeing a lot of room for double standard in this scenario. Are you claiming that the Grand Jury would have (should have?) indicted Regular Joe?

 

[Aber]

Let's see... Regular Joe passes Brown and Dorian walking in the street, stops alongside, tells them to get on the sidewalk. Brown assaults Joe, and fearing for his life Joe shoots Brown dead.

Yeah, I'm not seeing a lot of room for double standard in this scenario. Are you claiming that the Grand Jury would have (should have?) indicted Regular Joe?

Nice scenario, but not what happened. Remember there were two confrontations, separated by Brown running away from a man with a gun who chased him.

 

[Mike!]

Nice scenario, but not what happened. Remember there were two confrontations, separated by Brown running away from a man with a gun who chased him.

Yes, but you are leaving out several, rather important details, that took place between those "two confrontations" too. Minor details like brown grabbing the same said gun and getting shot in the hand by it, and punching the same said officer in the face before turning and "running away", oh, and then stopping, turning back to face the officer, and charging back at that very same said officer once again. The devil's in the details, as they say.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Nice scenario, but not what happened. Remember there were two confrontations, separated by Brown running away from a man with a gun who chased him.

And then turning around and running back toward a man with a gun.

You forgot that part.

 

[Toontown]

Well, here we are. Page 82. And still I see no signs of embarrassment setting in. Let me see if I can spur the onset of embarrassment:

Criminal assaults cop
Cop shoots criminal
Criminal dies
People nag and gripe bitterly about the cop in internet forums for a long, long time.

And people also nag and gripe bitterly when I call the world of Man a "monkeyball". Then they go to great lengths to prove me right.

 

[WildCat]

Nice scenario, but not what happened. Remember there were two confrontations, separated by Brown running away from a man with a gun who chased him.

"I ran because a man with a gun was chasing me" was a successful defense in an eluding arrest charge never.